Duke-NUS GMS

[advante]

I strongly agree with aquila and somamaranth...it is about time we stopped complaining about the credibility of the program.
As the motto for Duke-NUS GMS goes...igniting the pioneering spirit. We need to realise that regardless of the fact that the program is 'experimental' by no means will it be road block in what we want to achieve in the medical field.
A collaboration of 2 power house universities Duke and NUS in my opinion will not tarnish our intellectual pursuit.
The international outlook and approach will definitely lead to global recognition we do need to give it time.
So unless you have been accepted at other more prestigious med school programs do give this a shot...lifes a gamble make the best of it!

I think that the fact that this is a pioneering program is what makes it so interesting to me. In a new program, staff will be more open to new ideas and we are not only joining the program, but also shaping it at the same time. Try telling the NUS that they need to rethink their PhD program. I doubt even NUSSU has the power.

As for the role of the graduates of GMS, I believe that its flexible. Two years down the road, I may find myself being able to relate more to patients than lab. Thats why they give us MD, so we can practice medicine if we want. If you strongly want it, no one can and probably will try to stop you. Anyway, research teaches a person to think creatively and critically. Regardless of whether you are a scientist or a doctor, I think its a skill that needs to be trained.

I was actually considering both the GMS and NGS options for the whole of last week. I chose GMS eventually because the type of work I really want to do is translational research. I think currently, fundamental sciences are moving forward so fast that many of them are not actually exploited to benefit humans, especially in the area of cancer. I feel that in translational research, it would be good to gain a knowledge of medicine and human physiology. There is a vacuum and so a niche in this area in Singapore. That is why I chose the GMS program.

btw, want to come out lar kopi (stir coffee) one of these days? Maybe in late June so our friends from overseas can join us?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[travistravis]

thx for all of ur advice

i have decided to take the test on mid sept..and then hand in my application after then...

i now understand the key for the application is to know urself enough...the strength, weaknesses, exp...etc

i wish you guys all the best, and hope we can meet in GMS in the near future

 

[mcc5]

Somamaranth, Kiz and Aquila - I still don't understand why you guys are so excited. While the pros you guys listed are definitely true, the cons are so real that it is impossible for me to ignore. First of all, about the tuition. The tuition for a U.S. medical school is $50000 per year while that of Duke-NUS is around $25000 (converted to U.S. dollars). However, most of the U.S. schools offer financial aid to people who are U.S. citizens or permanent residents and if you got into the top 10 as an international student, you get financial aid too. The thing is that none of the U.S. schools requires you to sign a bond, even though the schools, especially the state schools, want their students to eventually stay and practice in their states. You know why? That is because the people in the U.S. are so confident about the superior compensation and conditions for their physicians that they don't need to resort to legal force to bind you. Even though U.S. doctors tend to be fed up with lawsuits and the stupid health care system, they still enjoy the best pay, the prestige of the profession and it is undoubtable fact that the best doctors, even from European countries like Germany or England, end up practicing in the United States. If the Singapore government subsidizes you education with half a million, you get subsidized more if you get into a U.S. school because the United States has much more funding than Singapore (Can anyone question this?) And remember: Duke is not paying a penny for this collaboration, Singapore government is paying everything and they want every penny of their investment back from you. This means putting you upon graduation into some public sector as cheap labor with low pay, while you, who are older than those graduating from the MBBS, have to think about how to compete against them if you choose to stay in Singapore. I don't question about the ability to get back to the U.S. to do residency for Duke-NUS graduates if you plan to be infectious disease specialist, primary care doctors or a psychiatrist. But if you want to get into competitive specialty like surgery or dermatology, it will be an uphill battle for you to if you want a spot in the U.S. Make sure your board exam scores are higher than those graduates from the top 10 U.S. schools. In fact, the U.S. residency programs are so reputed to discriminate against IMGs - well I don't want to get into this. Anyways, it is still hardly convincing for me to make this gamble and maybe some of you guys out there can enlighten me a little bit

 

[singkri]

See, the Singapore government is funding the entire Duke-GMS project with one sole objective... to make singapore spearhead the biomedical sciences in Asia. Duke has been taken as a partner only to provide the academic expertise.

Let's be fair- that's why there is the service bond... because they want you here!! They have no gain in training american docs who would go back to the states and settle there permanently.

So I think there's the answer, if you want to serve Singapore you accept the program, if you'd rather settle down in the States you wouldn't.

Plus, it also depends on what your alternatives are--- some of them who are more vehemently for Duke GMS probably do not have the option of pursuing medicine in the states.... this i'm not too sure-- but your alternatives are probably making your choice harder...

 

[advante]

Somamaranth, Kiz and Aquila - I still don't understand why you guys are so excited. While the pros you guys listed are definitely true, the cons are so real that it is impossible for me to ignore. First of all, about the tuition. The tuition for a U.S. medical school is $50000 per year while that of Duke-NUS is around $25000 (converted to U.S. dollars). However, most of the U.S. schools offer financial aid to people who are U.S. citizens or permanent residents and if you got into the top 10 as an international student, you get financial aid too. The thing is that none of the U.S. schools requires you to sign a bond, even though the schools, especially the state schools, want their students to eventually stay and practice in their states. You know why? That is because the people in the U.S. are so confident about the superior compensation and conditions for their physicians that they don't need to resort to legal force to bind you. Even though U.S. doctors tend to be fed up with lawsuits and the stupid health care system, they still enjoy the best pay, the prestige of the profession and it is undoubtable fact that the best doctors, even from European countries like Germany or England, end up practicing in the United States. If the Singapore government subsidizes you education with half a million, you get subsidized more if you get into a U.S. school because the United States has much more funding than Singapore (Can anyone question this?) And remember: Duke is not paying a penny for this collaboration, Singapore government is paying everything and they want every penny of their investment back from you. This means putting you upon graduation into some public sector as cheap labor with low pay, while you, who are older than those graduating from the MBBS, have to think about how to compete against them if you choose to stay in Singapore. I don't question about the ability to get back to the U.S. to do residency for Duke-NUS graduates if you plan to be infectious disease specialist, primary care doctors or a psychiatrist. But if you want to get into competitive specialty like surgery or dermatology, it will be an uphill battle for you to if you want a spot in the U.S. Make sure your board exam scores are higher than those graduates from the top 10 U.S. schools. In fact, the U.S. residency programs are so reputed to discriminate against IMGs - well I don't want to get into this. Anyways, it is still hardly convincing for me to make this gamble and maybe some of you guys out there can enlighten me a little bit

I am one of those cases described by Singkri where pursuing a medical degree in US is not an option, because I am a Singaporean. The cost of living and tuition will probably make me a pauper for the rest of my life. However, I think it is not right to ask why should Somamaranth, Kiz and Aquila be excited. I can answer it for them, we are excited because we are embarking on a new phase of our life, we are excited that we are allowed to pursue medicine as it is our passion. We are excited because we have been selected into a program we chose. There, why should we not be excited?

I think that the primary role of Duke-NUS is not to train primary physicians. They made it pretty clear that we are being geared towards research. It takes about as long to achieve a PhD in Singapore, with an extra 2 to 3 years, we can equip ourselves with extra skills for a wider range of work, I think its a good deal.

 

[somamaranth]

Hi mcc5,

You raised a good point about the extensive financial aid resources available in the US. However, I think there's a huge difference between receiving a loan and being given a subsidy. The bond is almost like a scholarship. When you're working off the service commitment, you'll be earning money that you can keep, as opposed to paying off loans. The average debt of graduating medical students of the class of 2007 (according to the AMA) was $139,517 and this figure had increased by approximately 7% since the previous year. Let's be honest: that's pretty high. And that's only the average number; I know some medical students who are up to half a million US dollars in debt. Of course, some might argue that fresh grads practicing in America will be able to pay off that figure in no time due to the ridiculously high salaries doctors receive here, but I'm not entirely confident of that. I don't have any stats to back that up, but I've only heard stressful things about medical graduates trying to pay back their enormous student loans.

Evidently, the purpose of the bond is to have Duke-NUS students practice in Singapore for a few years after graduation. It's true that state schools in the US don't legally force people to stay in-state upon graduation, but state schools also have a self-selecting application process. Take UWash, possibly the top US medical school in terms of primary care, for example: it only admit students from WA, ID, MT, AK and OR. This process of only matriculating residents of these states already increases the probability that graduating students will stay in the Northwest. I think the nature of Duke-NUS (with its diverse class of many different nationalities) makes it hard for the Singapore government -not- to bond graduates -- of course people will want to return to their home countries to practice medicine. And I think everyone will eventually get a chance to do just that -- just after some time in Singapore. I don't see this time in Singapore as necessarily all that bad either. Singapore has one of the best healthcare systems in the world, and I think we can all learn a lot from being immersed in it. Medical education in the US is undeniably world-class, but I'm sure we all agree that the US healthcare system leaves much to be desired.

I can't dispute the fact that US residency programs tend to discriminate against IMGs, but I would definitely look into this and talk to Dr Stenberg or Dr Kamei about it. I sort of got the impression that the service bond would be the main factor preventing Duke-NUS students from getting overseas residencies, not so much the nature of the US residency program. After all, we'll be studying the Duke curriculum, taught by professors from Duke, and will eventually be getting our M.D.s from Duke (and NUS). But I can't say I know a lot about this.

At the end of the day, it's easy to think of this whole program as a government's attempt to "exploit" fresh and intelligent young minds. But the way I view it, the research and medical opportunities in Singapore are top-notch; Duke-NUS has a great program and (hopefully? ) a diverse international class; you get a joint degree from 2 highly recognized institutions in the US and Asia; Southeast Asia's a great region to be in; and Singapore's probably one of the best (safest, cleanest and vibrant, at the very least) places in Asia for anyone to relocate for few years and experience a new culture. I think the appeal of this program really depends on your priorities as a doctor and your future goals. It's certainly a pretty appealing program to me!

 

[kiz]

thanx advante and somamranth,

You two have summed up pretty much all I had to say. Indeed im excited about the program.

No offense but isnt this thread for those who HAVE applied to Duke-NUS or those INTERESTED in the program? So why then do we have detractors who are not even keen on applying for the program voicing their concerns?

Are the truly benevolent or malevolent?

 

[aquila]

Sigh. I am still waiting and waiting for news of my application. Looking at all those who are accepted, guess my chances are slim. Anyone has any idea what is the MCAT cut off this year?

I'm sorry to hear that, Kimmy. After I was accepted, I got a phone call from Duke-NUS asking if I was matriculating so my guess is they're still trying to figure out how many accepted students will choose to enroll. I think it's probably particularly hard for them to predict the decision of US students so no news is good news for now.

I don't think there is any particular MCAT cut-off.

Good luck!

 

[mcc5]

Advante - I apologized to you. Duke-NUS is great program and I feel that I have A LOT to contribute to the school if I choose to enroll (sorry for the pomposity here). The reason I raised those concerns is because I am trying to justify to myself why I should give up the kind of opportunities I have here in the US to go to Singapore. I can understand those people who have strong ties to Singapore or cannot come to the US but I have never been to Singapore, known few people who are from there and had absolutely no idea what is going to happen to me if I choose to go. By saying those things, I just want to have some people to counter my arguments with facts (somamaranth did just that but i am still not convinced). There is one unmistakable fact - people do care about money, especially their personal finances and you cannot mix that up with the fact that doctors should put the welfare of their patients before anything else. I guess a lot of people have asked about the salaries of physicians and residents in Singapore but got no reply - this shows people, even though they are reluctantly to raise these things - are deeply concerned.

 

[jamaicandoc]

I like all the interesting arguments being made here. I want to chime in on the tuition issue here. According to the website they say it costs approximately US $ 100,000 per year to educate one student. I don't think that holds true to any extent or anywhere in the world, regardless of what people may say. In the US the tuition for a lot of private schools right now varies between 40-55,000. That is the cost to the school to educate you, your living expenses are your own. I think people will agree that the US is one of the most expensive places to study medicine. As for state schools, yes the education is subsidized in the US, but in those cases tuition varies from US $ 6000 a year to $ 35,000. So I'm not understanding what is it about Duke-NUS that will cost them US $ 100,000 to educate one student and that the government is heavily subsidizing the education. With the $ 25,000 tuition tag, i think at best the government is subsidizing $ 25,000, if you compare it to the $ 50 K tuition at some private schools in the US. so the subsidy is $ 25 K a year x 4 years = $ 100 K. $ 100k in subsidy is not justifiable for 6 years of a service commitment, because for non singaporean citizens it is 5 years + 1 year of internship.

 

[jamaicandoc]

If I can draw another anology here, this is similar to a small business owner placing a price tag of $ 100 on something and then saying that s/he will give you a 75 % discount and sell it to you for $ 25. You feel good about the discount and think you got something worth a $ 100 for $ 25, whereas what price tag the business owner decides to put on the item does not equal the market value of the item.

 

[Socrates10]

It is no doubt that GMS hopes to produce doctors who can boost Singapore's efforts in translational research, leading to cutting-edge therapies. As far as I can see, the area that doctors can contribute is to identify relevant and the most important problems in the clinic that should be researched upon. In collaboration with the PhD scientists (biochemist, molecular biologist etc), we also need doctors who can co-ordinate with these scientists and conduct clinical trials on patients with the techniques developed in the laboratory by the scientist. In other words, these doctors have to be involved in patient care to fulfill the above roles. The only scenario for doctors not to be practising as a physician is for the doctor to take on a scientist role in a laboratory and forgo clinical practice completely. I seriously do not think that MOH will force a doctor to go into full-time laboratory research straight after graduation during the bond period. Don't you think it is a waste of resources to spend so much time and money to train a person in medicine and then to force him or her to forgo medical practice altogether? Besides, GMS graduates without a PhD are not the best qualified people to do laboratory research. A life science PhD holder would be better suited. Also MOH are currently planning residency programs for the GMS graduates and I would expect that they would lead to specialisation. If the residency programs do not lead to specialisation and instead lead to 100% research with 0% patient care, this GMS will become like a medical PhD program. It would not be a medical school any more.

So I think the clinician-scientists that GMS are mainly trying to produce would be doctors who has a research perspective while seeing their patients so that they are able to identify problems in the clinics and communicate to the PhD researchers in the laboratories. Also, these doctors would be important in conducting clinical trials on their patients and to track their progress. And the Singapore government is changing their focus in hospitals. Previously, the strategy is to keep costs low by focusing on patient care and to let other people spend the money on research and then to tap on any successful proven therapies. That is why the MBBS curriculum has not been designed with any emphasis on research. And due to the focus on patient care in hospitals, it is natural that traditionally in Singapore, MBBS graduates are not enthusiastic about research. But there has been a shift in focus in recent years. I think even in the MBBS curriculum, there has been more emphasis on research. And if you have read some of the BST and AST specialist training requirements, there are also research components.

And looking at the direction that Singapore is going, I think to be a leader in public hospitals, research expertise would be highly valued. I would think that only if one is adverse to even doing a little bit of research and simply hates research to the core, then probably GMS will be a pain because it has a research year (in fact this is one of the special features of the Duke curriculum).

The only clear-cut case would be if one is aspiring to become a private GP after the bond and to have your own clinic, then GMS will not be suitable. Or if you want to have absolute nothing to do with research after you become a consultant and you aspire to go into private practice in private hospitals. But I think while undergoing specialisation training, it would be hard to avoid research totally, whether you are a MBBS or MD graduate.

I do not think that just because the GMS graduates are older, they would be discouraged from specialising. At the admission seminar, it was mentioned that the hope is for the graduates to go into residency programs and become experts in their preferred specialty areas. It was also mentioned that for those who are keen on a 100% research career in the laboratory after graduation, GMS still wants the person to do 1 year of internship in the hospital so that he can be licensed to practice medicine before he goes into the laboratory. Singapore need more specialist doctors and there are on-going plans to shorten the specialisation process. Also, the age cap on specialisation application has been lifted recently, meaning that doctors of any age can apply to specialise now. As I mentioned, the only way for your feared scenario of GMS graduates being forced to do research and forgoing patient care altogether and not being allowed to train to become a specialist is for MOH to post graduates into the laboratories straight after the internship year. Do you foresee this really happening? How sustainable is such an arrangement? If that happens, GMS would not be a medical school any more. It would be more of a medical PhD program. But other PhD programs in Singapore comes with stipends and scholarships. Who will then enroll in GMS?

Any comment or discussion is welcomed from anyone on the forum.

First and foremost, comparing a Life Science PhD graduate to an MD, the former can do benchwork research, but if you are talking about clinical research, it's a totally different kettle of fish. A typical Life Scence program wouldn't have exposed the undergraduates to clinical work, unlike the MBBS/MD program. Obviously, the MBBS/MD graduates would be the ones favoured to carry out clinical research.

With regards to the MBBS curriculum, I am not utterly convinced that there is a focus on research. A lab attendent at the NUS medical faculty once asked us if we were medical students. I told him that we were Life Science students. He was surprised because he told us that the laboratory experiments that we are doing was done by medical students in the past. However, it was stopped, and he thought it was resumed.

With regards to MOH postings, what I gathered is that it really depends on the nature of MOH postings, i.e. crossing of fingers that one aspiring physician gets his favourable posting.

As to becoming a leader of a hospital (I am presuming you are referring to executive level appointment), you don't need to be able to do research. A basic degree (preferably in the health sciecnes of course) and an MBA will suffice. Beter still if the MBA is from a school like INSEAD or Chicago Business School. Of course, to be a key opinion leader in the medical field, I don't deny that you need to possess research nous.

Secondly, if what you said about GMS wanting to produce more specialists is true, it may be a little bit inconsistent with the goal of GMS pushing Singapore to be a biomedical hub (research). I am not so sure about the fact about Singapore needing one specialist doctors as the regular MBBS program @NUS has expanded the class size. Don't forget there are overseas graduates also competing for spots. On the contrary, some specialities are overly competitive that slots are limited. A good number goes to the regular MBBS guys. I don't seem to perceive any evidence that those various specialties have expanded their spots as yet.

I don't think that MOH can prevent the GMS graduates from practising, but except that the hours are going to be long. That's a token fact. Maybe, you do your research in the day and see patients at night. You have to look at the focus of Duke's curriculum and infer why they were the chosen partner of collaboration with NUS. And the research-oriented focus of the admissions committee.

I do not deny that research expertise is unimportant. From my experience, actually specialists, especially those with commonwealth MDs (commonwealth MD is a higher qualification than the American MD) do possess substantial research nous. In fact, getting MD (Commonwealth) requires some form of research (submitting a thesis). A number of MBBS students will eventually pursue this track. Specialists are actually familiar with the science behind the nature of the illnesses they are dealing with. In my job, I work with the drug companies like Pfizer, Boehranger Ingelheim, Bayer, etc, and part of my job requires interaction with key opinion leaders (internationally) in the medical field. From my communication with those specialists (because I am responsible for the scientific aspects of the drug kits produced by the drug companies), they are actually familiar with mechanisms at the cellular level.

 

[Socrates10]

It is no doubt that GMS hopes to produce doctors who can boost Singapore's efforts in translational research, leading to cutting-edge therapies. As far as I can see, the area that doctors can contribute is to identify relevant and the most important problems in the clinic that should be researched upon. In collaboration with the PhD scientists (biochemist, molecular biologist etc), we also need doctors who can co-ordinate with these scientists and conduct clinical trials on patients with the techniques developed in the laboratory by the scientist. In other words, these doctors have to be involved in patient care to fulfill the above roles. The only scenario for doctors not to be practising as a physician is for the doctor to take on a scientist role in a laboratory and forgo clinical practice completely. I seriously do not think that MOH will force a doctor to go into full-time laboratory research straight after graduation during the bond period. Don't you think it is a waste of resources to spend so much time and money to train a person in medicine and then to force him or her to forgo medical practice altogether? Besides, GMS graduates without a PhD are not the best qualified people to do laboratory research. A life science PhD holder would be better suited. Also MOH are currently planning residency programs for the GMS graduates and I would expect that they would lead to specialisation. If the residency programs do not lead to specialisation and instead lead to 100% research with 0% patient care, this GMS will become like a medical PhD program. It would not be a medical school any more.

So I think the clinician-scientists that GMS are mainly trying to produce would be doctors who has a research perspective while seeing their patients so that they are able to identify problems in the clinics and communicate to the PhD researchers in the laboratories. Also, these doctors would be important in conducting clinical trials on their patients and to track their progress. And the Singapore government is changing their focus in hospitals. Previously, the strategy is to keep costs low by focusing on patient care and to let other people spend the money on research and then to tap on any successful proven therapies. That is why the MBBS curriculum has not been designed with any emphasis on research. And due to the focus on patient care in hospitals, it is natural that traditionally in Singapore, MBBS graduates are not enthusiastic about research. But there has been a shift in focus in recent years. I think even in the MBBS curriculum, there has been more emphasis on research. And if you have read some of the BST and AST specialist training requirements, there are also research components.

And looking at the direction that Singapore is going, I think to be a leader in public hospitals, research expertise would be highly valued. I would think that only if one is adverse to even doing a little bit of research and simply hates research to the core, then probably GMS will be a pain because it has a research year (in fact this is one of the special features of the Duke curriculum).

The only clear-cut case would be if one is aspiring to become a private GP after the bond and to have your own clinic, then GMS will not be suitable. Or if you want to have absolute nothing to do with research after you become a consultant and you aspire to go into private practice in private hospitals. But I think while undergoing specialisation training, it would be hard to avoid research totally, whether you are a MBBS or MD graduate.

I do not think that just because the GMS graduates are older, they would be discouraged from specialising. At the admission seminar, it was mentioned that the hope is for the graduates to go into residency programs and become experts in their preferred specialty areas. It was also mentioned that for those who are keen on a 100% research career in the laboratory after graduation, GMS still wants the person to do 1 year of internship in the hospital so that he can be licensed to practice medicine before he goes into the laboratory. Singapore need more specialist doctors and there are on-going plans to shorten the specialisation process. Also, the age cap on specialisation application has been lifted recently, meaning that doctors of any age can apply to specialise now. As I mentioned, the only way for your feared scenario of GMS graduates being forced to do research and forgoing patient care altogether and not being allowed to train to become a specialist is for MOH to post graduates into the laboratories straight after the internship year. Do you foresee this really happening? How sustainable is such an arrangement? If that happens, GMS would not be a medical school any more. It would be more of a medical PhD program. But other PhD programs in Singapore comes with stipends and scholarships. Who will then enroll in GMS?

Any comment or discussion is welcomed from anyone on the forum.

First and foremost, comparing a Life Science PhD graduate to an MD, the former can do benchwork research, but if you are talking about clinical research, it's a totally different kettle of fish. A typical Life Scence program wouldn't have exposed the undergraduates to clinical work, unlike the MBBS/MD program. Obviously, the MBBS/MD graduates would be the ones favoured to carry out clinical research.

With regards to the MBBS curriculum, I am not utterly convinced that there is a focus on research. A lab attendent at the NUS medical faculty once asked us if we were medical students. I told him that we were Life Science students. He was surprised because he told us that the laboratory experiments that we are doing was done by medical students in the past. However, it was stopped, and he thought it was resumed.

With regards to MOH postings, what I gathered is that it really depends on the nature of MOH postings, i.e. crossing of fingers that one aspiring physician gets his favourable posting.

As to becoming a leader of a hospital (I am presuming you are referring to executive level appointment), you don't need to be able to do research. A basic degree (preferably in the health sciecnes of course) and an MBA will suffice. Beter still if the MBA is from a school like INSEAD or Chicago Business School. Of course, to be a key opinion leader in the medical field, I don't deny that you need to possess research nous.

Secondly, if what you said about GMS wanting to produce more specialists is true, it may be a little bit inconsistent with the goal of GMS pushing Singapore to be a biomedical hub (research). I am not so sure about the fact about Singapore needing one specialist doctors as the regular MBBS program @NUS has expanded the class size. Don't forget there are overseas graduates also competing for spots. On the contrary, some specialities are overly competitive that slots are limited. A good number goes to the regular MBBS guys. I don't seem to perceive any evidence that those various specialties have expanded their spots as yet.

I don't think that MOH can prevent the GMS graduates from practising, but except that the hours are going to be long. That's a token fact. Maybe, you do your research in the day and see patients at night. You have to look at the focus of Duke's curriculum and infer why they were the chosen partner of collaboration with NUS. And the research-oriented focus of the admissions committee.

I do not deny that research expertise is unimportant. From my experience, actually specialists, especially those with commonwealth MDs (commonwealth MD is a higher qualification than the American MD) do possess substantial research nous. In fact, getting MD (Commonwealth) requires some form of research (submitting a thesis). A number of MBBS students will eventually pursue this track. Specialists are actually familiar with the science behind the nature of the illnesses they are dealing with. In my job, I work with the drug companies like Pfizer, Boehranger Ingelheim, Bayer, etc, and part of my job requires interaction with key opinion leaders (internationally) in the medical field. From my communication with those specialists (because I am responsible for the scientific aspects of the drug kits produced by the drug companies), they are actually familiar with mechanisms at the cellular level.

 

[aquila]

In response to questions about physician salaries in Singapore, here is what I got after doing a google search:

Physician compensation. Doctors appear to be reasonably well-compensated. Physicians in government-owned facilities receive a civil service pay scale plus a "clinical faculty supplement" of 25 percent of their base wage. Those with very heavy clinical loads, especially in procedure-based specialties, may opt for an incentive based on their total billings in place of the fixed 25 percent supplement. Table II shows average salaries for clinical personnel. A senior registrar (roughly equivalent to a post-residency fellowship in the U.S.) receives a salary equal to three times the country's average annual wage. A junior staff physician receives five times the average wage, and a senior physician earns about six times the average wage. These income levels are comparable to the U.S., where five to six times the average wage is normal.20

Private physicians are probably better compensated than their public sector counterparts. They are generally paid on a fee-for-service basis. Office visits cost S$12 to S$120, depending on duration, complexity and qualifications of the physician. Surcharges apply for first visits, after-hours service and emergency care. Hospital consultations bring S$50 to S$200 per day. Maternity care, including prenatal and postnatal visits, costs S$1,500 to S$4,000.21 Table III shows excerpts from the Singapore Medical Association Guideline on Fees for billing in the private sector.
​

This excerpt is taken from a report on the Medical Savings Account in Singapore by the National Center for Policy Analysis. Quite an interesting read. Here's the executive summary:

Executive Summary
In 1984 Singapore adopted a system of Medisave accounts, individually owned accounts used to pay for many of the health care expenditures that in the United States would normally be covered by health insurance. The fact that people are spending their own money rather than that of a third-party insurer has helped to curtail Singapore's health care costs, which are about 3.1 percent of gross domestic product. Even with these low expenditures, the income of Singapore doctors is about the same in relation to average wages as physician income in the United States, and patients have easy access to such technology as CAT scans, organ transplants and bypass surgery.

Singapore also compares favorably to other "Asian tigers" in terms of spending and overall health indicators. For example, Singapore had an infant mortality rate of five per 1,000 live births in 1992, equal to that of Japan and lower than that of Hong Kong, which was six.

To achieve this record, the government has implemented three programs that help people pay for medical expenses: Medisave, Medishield and Medifund.


Here's the link to the report
http://www.ncpa.org/studies/s203/s203.html

 

[PeaceSoars]

First and foremost, comparing a Life Science PhD graduate to an MD, the former can do benchwork research, but if you are talking about clinical research, it's a totally different kettle of fish. A typical Life Scence program wouldn't have exposed the undergraduates to clinical work, unlike the MBBS/MD program. Obviously, the MBBS/MD graduates would be the ones favoured to carry out clinical research.


With regards to the MBBS curriculum, I am not utterly convinced that there is a focus on research. A lab attendent at the NUS medical faculty once asked us if we were medical students. I told him that we were Life Science students. He was surprised because he told us that the laboratory experiments that we are doing was done by medical students in the past. However, it was stopped, and he thought it was resumed.

With regards to MOH postings, what I gathered is that it really depends on the nature of MOH postings, i.e. crossing of fingers that one aspiring physician gets his favourable posting.

As to becoming a leader of a hospital (I am presuming you are referring to executive level appointment), you don't need to be able to do research. A basic degree (preferably in the health sciecnes of course) and an MBA will suffice. Beter still if the MBA is from a school like INSEAD or Chicago Business School. Of course, to be a key opinion leader in the medical field, I don't deny that you need to possess research nous.



Secondly, if what you said about GMS wanting to produce more specialists is true, it may be a little bit inconsistent with the goal of GMS pushing Singapore to be a biomedical hub (research).


I am not so sure about the fact about Singapore needing one specialist doctors as the regular MBBS program @NUS has expanded the class size. Don't forget there are overseas graduates also competing for spots. On the contrary, some specialities are overly competitive that slots are limited. A good number goes to the regular MBBS guys. I don't seem to perceive any evidence that those various specialties have expanded their spots as yet.





I don't think that MOH can prevent the GMS graduates from practising, but except that the hours are going to be long. That's a token fact. Maybe, you do your research in the day and see patients at night. You have to look at the focus of Duke's curriculum and infer why they were the chosen partner of collaboration with NUS. And the research-oriented focus of the admissions committee.


I do not deny that research expertise is unimportant. From my experience, actually specialists, especially those with commonwealth MDs (commonwealth MD is a higher qualification than the American MD) do possess substantial research nous. In fact, getting MD (Commonwealth) requires some form of research (submitting a thesis). A number of MBBS students will eventually pursue this track. Specialists are actually familiar with the science behind the nature of the illnesses they are dealing with. In my job, I work with the drug companies like Pfizer, Boehranger Ingelheim, Bayer, etc, and part of my job requires interaction with key opinion leaders (internationally) in the medical field. From my communication with those specialists (because I am responsible for the scientific aspects of the drug kits produced by the drug companies), they are actually familiar with mechanisms at the cellular level.

Yes, I mean laboratory research when I said a Life science PhD is more suited to do the research than MD graduates.

I did not mean executive leaders. Rather, I was talking about leaders and heads of clinical departments.

Goal of GMS is to kick-start Singapore efforts in trying to transform the local medical landscape to one in which we have both excellent patient care as well as cutting edge research leading to new and innovative therapies. The policy last time is to focus on patient care. Now that Singapore aims to be a hub for medical tourism, the government realises it is no longer enough to just excel in patient care. If we only provide normal procedure services, other countries in the region like India can do the same thing at a more competitive price. That is why they are trying to develop Singapore into a hub not only reputed for excellent patient care, but also renowned for having state-of-the-art therapies.

In the wider context of Singapore biomedical research push, there are now people and institutes working on scientific research. The priority for the next couple of years would be to develop actual clinical applications from the scientific research (translational research). For that to happen, we need doctors to communicate and co-ordinate with the scientists in the laboratory doing bench work because as what you have mentioned, the life science PhD scientists would not have any significant clinical knowledge.

I heard that MOH is developing new residency programs for the GMS MD graduates, the details of which is not known yet.

Traditionally, few doctors would like to do research because of little support from the hospitals which have been focusing on patient care. The few passionate ones do research on top of their patient workload, which is very tough. With the recent change in focus on embracing more research, there have been programs or awards that promised doctors who wan to do research protected time. I think this trend is going to continue such that next time, hospitals will allocate part of their human resources in doing research. Because if things stay as they are now, with doctors doing research on top of their normal patient load, how is MOH going to encourage more research in our doctors? They either have to pay the doctors equally well for doing research as compared to doing patient care or pay the doctors the same amount and asking the doctors to do research as part of his work load.

 

[aquila]

In terms of numbers, the gross monthly incomes (75th percentile)

Specialized surgeon $22,821
General physician $14,653

Physicians are among the most well paid people in Singapore. As you can see here, the salaries are comparable to US physician salaries.

These numbers are based on the Report on Wages in Singapore 2005, released by the Minister of Manpower.

For the portion of the report on health personnel, go to http://www.mom.gov.sg/publish/etc/m...les.Par.16400.File.tmp/2005Wages_table4_6.xls

I also think Singaporean doctors are less prone to malpractice lawsuits so there won't be a need to shell out thousands of dollars every year for an insurance policy. I don't think any other nationality can compare with Americans when it comes to the tendency to sue.

Since US style residency programs will be new to Singapore, I have no idea how much the stipends will be for residents and fellows.

 

[Socrates10]

In terms of numbers, the gross monthly incomes (75th percentile)

Specialized surgeon $22,821
General physician $14,653

Physicians are among the most well paid people in Singapore. As you can see here, the salaries are comparable to US physician salaries.

These numbers are based on the Report on Wages in Singapore 2005, released by the Minister of Manpower.

For the portion of the report on health personnel, go to http://www.mom.gov.sg/publish/etc/m...les.Par.16400.File.tmp/2005Wages_table4_6.xls

I also think Singaporean doctors are less prone to malpractice lawsuits so there won't be a need to shell out thousands of dollars every year for an insurance policy. I don't think any other nationality can compare with Americans when it comes to the tendency to sue.

Since US style residency programs will be new to Singapore, I have no idea how much the stipends will be for residents and fellows.

Physicians are well compensated in the recent years. However, the supply of doctors are increasing. MOH actually casted a wider net by recognising degrees conferred by foreign medical schools. The supply side of the economics equation may be affected by this change in policy.

Numbers are good to know, economics dictates that demand versus supply will affect physician salaries. Thus, the question one should be asking is how will the pay scales of physicians be affected if we consider the dynamics of changes caused by the demand and supply of medical services (which is affected by policy changes, where recognition of foreign medical degrees are concerned.

Another factor that one has to take into account is the impact of healthcare tourism on the demand and supply equation. Thailand has earned a reputation as a spot for healthcare tourism, and there are Singaporeans who flock to Thailand for services of an equal quality, albeit at a lower price. I do perceive that healthcare tourism might make impact on the economics of healthcare in Singapore.

I think the question one should be asking is - will the wage stagnant or change, given the multitude of factors that can affect the supply and demand side of the equation?

 

[aquila]

Physicians are well compensated in the recent years. However, the supply of doctors are increasing. MOH actually casted a wider net by recognising degrees conferred by foreign medical schools. The supply side of the economics equation may be affected by this change in policy.

Geez Socrates10, you sure have a negative view of most of the things we have brought up in this thread! You mentioned earlier that you are a Singaporean applying to US med schools? Are you going to the US next fall? Did you apply to Duke-NUS GMS? Nothing personal with these questions, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. You can PM me if you'd like.

Talking about supply vs demand definitely has its merits but I don't see physician salaries fluctuating, at least not in the short term. If Singapore wants to attract the best and the brightest (and Singapore does love to do this!), it will have to provide competitive salaries to its physicians.

More international medical graduates apply for residency positions in the US every year than there are spots to fill, and yet we don't see physician salaries dropping. I think Duke-NUS graduates will be considered the creme de la creme in Singapore and thus the salaries should also reflect this.

 

[Socrates10]

Geez Socrates10, you sure have a negative view of most of the things we have brought up in this thread! You mentioned earlier that you are a Singaporean applying to US med schools? Are you going to the US next fall? Did you apply to Duke-NUS GMS? Nothing personal with these questions, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. You can PM me if you'd like.

Talking about supply vs demand definitely has its merits but I don't see physician salaries fluctuating, at least not in the short term. If Singapore wants to attract the best and the brightest (and Singapore does love to do this!), it will have to provide competitive salaries to its physicians.

More international medical graduates apply for residency positions in the US every year than there are spots to fill, and yet we don't see physician salaries dropping. I think Duke-NUS graduates will be considered the creme de la creme in Singapore and thus the salaries should also reflect this.

Dear Aquila:

The nature of my posts has got nothing to do with my aspirations. I hope my talk about demand and supply does not serve to portray any form of negativity, but rather a dose of reality (the issues of healthcare tourism and increasing the list of medical degrees recognised are real). No, I never did apply to Duke-NUS.

If you want my frank opinion, I see Duke-NUS graduates as different from regular MBBS fellows. It can be seen that the policy makers intended Duke-NUS for a different function as opposed to a regular MBBS program. If you have followed the policies pertaining to changes, the shortage of doctors were addressed by increasing the number of universities conferring medical degrees (you have Singaporeans going to such universities) and increasing the number of seats in the MBBS program. Duke-NUS was meant for a different aim. Back to the demand and supply side, perhaps they may apply to the MBBS fellows, not so much to the Duke-NUS fellows.

Let me give you a reality of the situation here. During the post-2001 economic crisis (against the back-drop of SARS and 1997 Financial crisis), one move the government made was to import large numbers of foreigners with lower wage demands. This would have an obvious effect of depressing wages. These foreigners came from countries like China, India, Philippines, etc. Look carefully at the list of medical degrees that are recognised. https://www.smc.gov.sg/html/1153709442948.html Look out for degrees conferred by Chinese and Indian universities. There are already Indian, Chinese, Filipinoes working as doctors here. Thus, the biggest fear is that what happened with regards to wage depression might happen in the medical sector. Idealitically, who wouldn't want the wages to be at the levels cited by MOM? Ask yourself this question. However, I have digressed.

I would like to reiterate that Duke-NUS is different from MBBS program. Thus, I would respectfully disagree that they should be perceived as creme de la creme when there is no basis for comparison (in line with what the policy makers intended, when they increased the intake for the MBBS program and opened the Duke-NUS school). Perhaps, I have inadvertently lumped Duke-NUS and regular MBBS people together and brought up the salient point about economics (which portrayed a negative impression perceived by you) when I shouldn't have lumped the two together. I do agree with you that there should be good renumeration if there is a demand for talent. Thus, in line with what the policy holders intend for Duke-NUS (translational clinical research, bringing benchwork research to bedside), I do think that renumeration should be competitive. The fact that they are doing something that is identified as the next "in-thing", different from what the MBBS were doing, they should all the more receive appropriate financial renumeration.

Actually, contrary to your assertion, there is a fascination with the word "scholarship" within Singapore culture, not the research type of scholarship, but rather the monies awarded by government body in exchange for a service bond to the awarding body (but MBBS-PhD has both worlds). If you ask me what is perceived as a creme de la creme here, it would be the MBBS-Ph.D scholarship awarded by A*STAR. These scholars are the epitome of academic achievement and their Ph.D component is done in top universities like Oxford and Cambridge. You may refer to the link below:
http://www.a-star.edu.sg/graduate_academy_and_scholarships/62-National-Science-Scholarship-MBBS-PhD-

They are trained to be physician-scientists, very much like what Duke-NUS is doing. They also have the prestigious title of "A*STAR scholars".

 

[PeaceSoars]

Dear Aquila:

The nature of my posts has got nothing to do with my aspirations. I hope my talk about demand and supply does not serve to portray any form of negativity, but rather a dose of reality (the issues of healthcare tourism and increasing the list of medical degrees recognised are real). No, I never did apply to Duke-NUS.

If you want my frank opinion, I see Duke-NUS graduates as different from regular MBBS fellows. It can be seen that the policy makers intended Duke-NUS for a different function as opposed to a regular MBBS program. If you have followed the policies pertaining to changes, the shortage of doctors were addressed by increasing the number of universities conferring medical degrees (you have Singaporeans going to such universities) and increasing the number of seats in the MBBS program. Duke-NUS was meant for a different aim. Back to the demand and supply side, perhaps they may apply to the MBBS fellows, not so much to the Duke-NUS fellows.

Let me give you a reality of the situation here. During the post-2001 economic crisis (against the back-drop of SARS and 1997 Financial crisis), one move the government made was to import large numbers of foreigners with lower wage demands. This would have an obvious effect of depressing wages. These foreigners came from countries like China, India, Philippines, etc. Look carefully at the list of medical degrees that are recognised. https://www.smc.gov.sg/html/1153709442948.html Look out for degrees conferred by Chinese and Indian universities. There are already Indian, Chinese, Filipinoes working as doctors here. Thus, the biggest fear is that what happened with regards to wage depression might happen in the medical sector. Idealitically, who wouldn't want the wages to be at the levels cited by MOM? Ask yourself this question. However, I have digressed.

I would like to reiterate that Duke-NUS is different from MBBS program. Thus, I would respectfully disagree that they should be perceived as creme de la creme when there is no basis for comparison (in line with what the policy makers intended, when they increased the intake for the MBBS program and opened the Duke-NUS school). Perhaps, I have inadvertently lumped Duke-NUS and regular MBBS people together and brought up the salient point about economics (which portrayed a negative impression perceived by you) when I shouldn't have lumped the two together. I do agree with you that there should be good renumeration if there is a demand for talent. Thus, in line with what the policy holders intend for Duke-NUS (translational clinical research, bringing benchwork research to bedside), I do think that renumeration should be competitive. The fact that they are doing something that is identified as the next "in-thing", different from what the MBBS were doing, they should all the more receive appropriate financial renumeration.

Actually, contrary to your assertion, there is a fascination with the word "scholarship" within Singapore culture, not the research type of scholarship, but rather the monies awarded by government body in exchange for a service bond to the awarding body (but MBBS-PhD has both worlds). If you ask me what is perceived as a creme de la creme here, it would be the MBBS-Ph.D scholarship awarded by A*STAR. These scholars are the epitome of academic achievement and their Ph.D component is done in top universities like Oxford and Cambridge. You may refer to the link below:
http://www.a-star.edu.sg/graduate_academy_and_scholarships/62-National-Science-Scholarship-MBBS-PhD-

They are trained to be physician-scientists, very much like what Duke-NUS is doing. They also have the prestigious title of "A*STAR scholars".

Hello Socrates,

Your post seemed to imply that the intention of the government is to have a clear-cut "division of labour" between the NUS MBBS medical school and the Duke-NUS GMS in producing clinical physicians and clinical researchers respectively. I feel that they envision GMS graduates to excel both in patient care and research.

Your supporting evidence that the GMS is not set up to increase the supply of physicians is the observation of other measures that are deemed to be tackling the problem of doctor shortages in Singapore such as the increase of recognised overseas medical degrees and the increase in the MBBS course intake. However, this may not be an accurate conclusion to draw. Recognising more overseas medical degrees serves to alleviate the shortage of doctors in the immediate term. Increasing intake will be for the longer term. It was mentioned that current resources at NUS could not support a further increase in intake of MBBS. The authorities were faced with the decision of either expanding the NUS medical school or starting a second medical school and I think they have a committee to look into the matter. Finally they decided to have a second medical school which is Duke-NUS GMS. The reason for the decision is they prefer to inject diversity in the medical industry because they believe a second medical school will produce different doctors than the traditional MBBS route. One stated aim of GMS is indeed to increase the number of doctors in the country. Another aim is that they hope that more doctors will engage in research, and with the research emphasis in GMS, it is hoped that GMS will produce doctors who would contribute to medical research at some time or another in their career.

I agree that if one is clear that he or she wants to have a 100% patient care career next time and does not have interest in research, then GMS will not be a good fit because the person would not feel happy with the research emphasis in the program. However if one has interest in both clinical medicine and research, I would think that GMS is a good option. I do not think MOH will curtail the development of GMS graduates in training to be a specialist after graduation.

So are you applying to the NUS MBBS program or applying to the medical schools in the US?

 

[travistravis]

does anybody know the approx. number of application in 2008? and the statistics of the background? how many % of applicants will be invited for the interview? thanks

 

[aquila]

Just got the financial award letter from Duke-NUS and a letter from the c/o 2011 student council president today. I'm 99% sure I'll be enrolling at this point!

 

[travistravis]

Just got the financial award letter from Duke-NUS and a letter from the c/o 2011 student council president today. I'm 99% sure I'll be enrolling at this point!

wow congrad aquila...what is the financial package like? scholarship, subsidy or bursary? would u mind to share those information with us? really interested to know as an international student...becos the living standard is still high in Sg when compare to other cities in Asia..thx

 

[mcc5]

Just got my financial aid letter today. It is incredibly generous - make it harder for me to decline the offer. I have to ask myself: Am i really fated to go to Singapore? Actually I have a request - can anyone who did research in Singapore tell me a little bit about your project (you can send me a private message if you don't want to identify yourself)? I would really appreciate it. Also where do people publish in Singapore? What are the singaporean equivalents of Science and Nature?

 

[jamaicandoc]

I got my financial aid offer as well and it makes it much much harder to decline the offer. Here is to thinking about it long and hard.

 

[kiz]

same here... quite certain of accepting...

 

[aquila]

Just got my financial aid letter today. It is incredibly generous - make it harder for me to decline the offer. I have to ask myself: Am i really fated to go to Singapore? Actually I have a request - can anyone who did research in Singapore tell me a little bit about your project (you can send me a private message if you don't want to identify yourself)? I would really appreciate it. Also where do people publish in Singapore? What are the singaporean equivalents of Science and Nature?

Hi mcc5, Singaporean researchers publish in all the same journals that American researchers publish in! Science, Nature, Cell, etc...

I'm sure there are local journals but if you are able to publish in one of the big name journals, why not? BTW, much of academic research is international these days. Nature is a British publication (if I remember correctly) and if you flip through it, there is research published from all over the world...

Here's the profile page of a faculty member at Duke-NUS and he has publications in Science and Cell.
http://www.gms.edu.sg/index.php?Our Faculty/Profiles/Tan, Patrick.html

 

[PeaceSoars]

Hello all,

Congratulations to all those who have got the offer and the financial aid package.

Is your financial aid package a subsidy in tuition fees only? Approximately how many % subsidy? Is there any monthly stipend or allowance for living expenses?


Once again, congratulations to all who is on the way to fulfilling their dreams to practise medicine.

 

[Socrates10]

Hello Socrates,

Your post seemed to imply that the intention of the government is to have a clear-cut "division of labour" between the NUS MBBS medical school and the Duke-NUS GMS in producing clinical physicians and clinical researchers respectively. I feel that they envision GMS graduates to excel both in patient care and research.

Your supporting evidence that the GMS is not set up to increase the supply of physicians is the observation of other measures that are deemed to be tackling the problem of doctor shortages in Singapore such as the increase of recognised overseas medical degrees and the increase in the MBBS course intake. However, this may not be an accurate conclusion to draw. Recognising more overseas medical degrees serves to alleviate the shortage of doctors in the immediate term. Increasing intake will be for the longer term. It was mentioned that current resources at NUS could not support a further increase in intake of MBBS. The authorities were faced with the decision of either expanding the NUS medical school or starting a second medical school and I think they have a committee to look into the matter. Finally they decided to have a second medical school which is Duke-NUS GMS. The reason for the decision is they prefer to inject diversity in the medical industry because they believe a second medical school will produce different doctors than the traditional MBBS route. One stated aim of GMS is indeed to increase the number of doctors in the country. Another aim is that they hope that more doctors will engage in research, and with the research emphasis in GMS, it is hoped that GMS will produce doctors who would contribute to medical research at some time or another in their career.

I agree that if one is clear that he or she wants to have a 100% patient care career next time and does not have interest in research, then GMS will not be a good fit because the person would not feel happy with the research emphasis in the program. However if one has interest in both clinical medicine and research, I would think that GMS is a good option. I do not think MOH will curtail the development of GMS graduates in training to be a specialist after graduation.

So are you applying to the NUS MBBS program or applying to the medical schools in the US?

There is one salient point which you may have overlooked with regards to the recognition of overseas medical school degrees. That is, we have locals who can exercise the option of going to those schools in the expanded list. For example, in as far as Australian medical schools are concerned, only University of Sydney and University of Melbourne were recognised in the past. Now, the rest of the G8 is opened plus other Australian universities too. There is a sizable number of Singaporeans going to these schools. There are a number of degrees conferred by Indian universities being recognised here. You will not find it surprising that you get locals here going to these Indian schools to get their degrees. Bear in mind that these are Singaporeans and they will be here for the long time. Thus, expanding the list of recognisable degrees also mean that locals have the option to pursue them, and for sure, locals are definitely here to stay, and they are also part of the long term solution.

I agree that Duke-NUS will produce doctors that add to the diversity here. Secondly, a biomedical science push by a country is not really achieved by increasing the number of doctors, which is intuitive. It is rather improved by boosting research capacity.

I do think that Duke-NUS graduates will eventually work with patients, but as what some Singaporean posters have pointed out, what they are geared for is not so much of primary care.

No offense (and if what I said offends anyone here, please accept my sincerest apologies), but what I perceive is that some of the Singaporean posters here are aware of the agenda of Duke-NUS, but it seems that there are other posters here who seem to think that the aim of Duke-NUS is geared towards primary care (not sure if they are Singaporeans or not). There seem to be a dichotomy here. However, diverse views are good.

 

[Socrates10]

Dear all who have been accepted and have received your financial packages:

Congratulations on your financial packages. For those whom are from America, if you happen to live in say California, you will find Singapore's weather similar, i.e. no snow. You can hop on a budget airline and explore the surrounding Southeast Asian region or cross the causeway up north into Malaysia and visit some of their spots for tourism. I am certain you will enjoy your stay here.

 

[aquila]

Err.. actually Singapore weather is not very much like California weather at all (except for the no snow part). Singapore is a tropical country near the equator. It's hot and humid, like really humid, all year round with a monsoon (rainy) season.

I've never lived in California so I cannot say for sure what the weather is like but when I was in San Francisco in Feb, it was actually quite chilly (10C) at night and dry. LA, on the other hand, was super dry and hot during the summer. Was also chilly at night.


There're lots of clouds in Singapore so the temperature doesn't fluctuate quite as much.

 

[aquila]

Hello all,

Congratulations to all those who have got the offer and the financial aid package.

Is your financial aid package a subsidy in tuition fees only? Approximately how many % subsidy? Is there any monthly stipend or allowance for living expenses?


Once again, congratulations to all who is on the way to fulfilling their dreams to practise medicine.

I'm not sure what the difference between the different terms are but it's money! Haha, for me it's quite a substantial sum for tuition so instead of paying $38,000 for tuition, I get to pay a much smaller sum than that. The letter also says that they give up to $50,000 in financial aid to students. I think the additional $12,000 will probably go toward living expenses.

 

[travistravis]

I'm not sure what the difference between the different terms are but it's money! Haha, for me it's quite a substantial sum for tuition so instead of paying $38,000 for tuition, I get to pay a much smaller sum than that. The letter also says that they give up to $50,000 in financial aid to students. I think the additional $12,000 will probably go toward living expenses.

wow, the offer is so good....so u mean everybody's package is different rite? it depends on ur needs and they evaluate case by case? and is it true that the financial package is offered after u have receive those admission package?

 

[aquila]

wow, the offer is so good....so u mean everybody's package is different rite? it depends on ur needs and they evaluate case by case? and is it true that the financial package is offered after u have receive those admission package?

yes yes yes

 

[PeaceSoars]

I'm not sure what the difference between the different terms are but it's money! Haha, for me it's quite a substantial sum for tuition so instead of paying $38,000 for tuition, I get to pay a much smaller sum than that. The letter also says that they give up to $50,000 in financial aid to students. I think the additional $12,000 will probably go toward living expenses.

The financial aid package offered to you is less than $38 000 per year? This means that you will not be getting any stipends for living expenses?

 

[aquila]

The financial aid package offered to you is less than $38 000 per year? This means that you will not be getting any stipends for living expenses?

nope unfortunately not. Did you get a living stipend?

 

[vicks]

how can i fill up the section on the security number if i am a singaporen?

thanks

 

[aquila]

how can i fill up the section on the security number if i am a singaporen?

thanks

You mean the Social Security Number? I would just leave it blank if you don't have one. Good luck!

 

[kiz]

hi, any of u guys able to access the class of 2012 google group?? i cant seem to access it..

 

[aquila]

kiz, is there a group for the c/o 2012. I only found the gp for the c/o 2011. Perhaps we can start a group on facebook as well?

 

[spyderdrew3303]

kiz, is there a group for the c/o 2012. I only found the gp for the c/o 2011. Perhaps we can start a group on facebook as well?

Very good idea. Just add me when you have the facebook group up and running. I'll pm you my real name and e-mail.

 

[aquila]

The facebook group has been created folks! Please search for Duke-NUS Graduate Medical School - class of 2012 and add yourself!

 

[aquila]

del

 

[kiz]

kiz, is there a group for the c/o 2012. I only found the gp for the c/o 2011. Perhaps we can start a group on facebook as well?

i was sent a link by the student affairs dept to join the google group but have not been able to access it...:S
will update u ll if i manage to get through..
jus joined the facebook group..thanx aquila!

 

[jinto]

The bottom line is, is Duke-NUS considered FMG or US senior during match?
Or wait, you can't even participate in the match coz they tie you down in singapore for 5 years

 

[aquila]

Jinto, I believe Duke-NUS is considered a FMS.

Very few selected students will be allowed to enter the US match after senior year (you would still need to return to Spore to fulfill the 5 year service bond).

 

[mdude3]

Hi guys. So I have been here in Singapore for about a week and I'm getting ready to return to the US tomorrow. To my fellow US acceptees; unless you have been offered a deal you simply cannot turn down from a very prestigious US MD school, DO NOT TURN DOWN THIS OPPORTUNITY. Singapore is an AMAZING place and Duke-NUS has a very promising future. It is a risk, yes, but I really think the risk can be likened to having invested in google back in 2002. If there is anything Singapore is good at, it is doing what they set out to do and the MOH and the government is really supportive of Duke-NUS. I sat in on a GMS and lab session and the way they conduct these sessions is possibly the BEST way of learning. It reinforces teamwork and the weaker students have the opportunity to really benefit from the stronger students. The faculty are very accomplished/engaging and the students are very nice. I also met with Dr. Stenberg, Dr. Cook, Dr. Grahm, and they have very grand plans for the coming class and the future of Duke-NUS.

It is true that you will end up spending 9 years total here unless you opt to do your 3rd year elsewhere and do elective rotations internationally during 4th year. And even if you do your residency elsewhere, you will have the bond to return to. So give or take 7-9 years in Singapore. But honestly, this place is AMAZING. It is vibrant like NYC or Philadelphia in terms of a city like atmosphere with LOTS to do, eat, etc but it is sooo clean, kempt, and safe. Everything is so convenient. Public transportation here is without precedent. For about $1.50 SGD you can get from one side of the island to the other on the MRT, which is extremely easy to use, is very fast, and clean. Usually destination charges range from 0.90-1.50 SGD. Buses are also very convenient.

To those concerned about residencies conflicting with current system in place. The Duke-NUS students will have a senior standing than those in the MBBS program because of more clinical experience. And if you didn't know, all Singapore men must serve in the Armed forces after high school so the male MBBS students will be roughly the same age or only a year or so younger than those of us who are attending close to or right after undergrad. So really age is not a MAJOR issue to those concerned in terms of post graduation training.

Living is reasonable if you partner up with others but can be expensive if you want to live alone. Food is DELICIOUS and cheap at most places. There is LOTS to eat, I mean a LOT. Some foods are wierd like ice cream b/w actual bread but most are REALLY good. And guys, the women here are well.........WOW and quite friendly. That's all I'm going to say about that to not offend any women on this forum. Honestly, at a glance Singapore is just like the US but about 15,000 smaller so person/land ration can become evident.

I'm going to 2nd look days at 3 US MD schools that I am still considering as soon as I return. But it is going to be a VERY tough decision b/w my top US school choice and Duke-NUS. With Singapore developing at the rate it is and the US dollar weakening at the rate that it is, you should really take everything into consideration. If any questions, please send me a personal message. Good luck.

 

[nimbusadjust120]

Hi guys. So I have been here in Singapore for about a week and I'm getting ready to return to the US tomorrow. To my fellow US acceptees; unless you have been offered a deal you simply cannot turn down from a very prestigious US MD school, DO NOT TURN DOWN THIS OPPORTUNITY. Singapore is an AMAZING place and Duke-NUS has a very promising future. It is a risk, yes, but I really think the risk can be likened to having invested in google back in 2002. If there is anything Singapore is good at, it is doing what they set out to do and the MOH and the government is really supportive of Duke-NUS. I sat in on a GMS and lab session and the way they conduct these sessions is possibly the BEST way of learning. It reinforces teamwork and the weaker students have the opportunity to really benefit from the stronger students. The faculty are very accomplished/engaging and the students are very nice. I also met with Dr. Stenberg, Dr. Cook, Dr. Grahm, and they have very grand plans for the coming class and the future of Duke-NUS.

It is true that you will end up spending 9 years total here unless you opt to do your 3rd year elsewhere and do elective rotations internationally during 4th year. And even if you do your residency elsewhere, you will have the bond to return to. So give or take 7-9 years in Singapore. But honestly, this place is AMAZING. It is vibrant like NYC or Philadelphia in terms of a city like atmosphere with LOTS to do, eat, etc but it is sooo clean, kempt, and safe. Everything is so convenient. Public transportation here is without precedent. For about $1.50 SGD you can get from one side of the island to the other on the MRT, which is extremely easy to use, is very fast, and clean. Usually destination charges range from 0.90-1.50 SGD. Buses are also very convenient.

To those concerned about residencies conflicting with current system in place. The Duke-NUS students will have a senior standing than those in the MBBS program because of more clinical experience. And if you didn't know, all Singapore men must serve in the Armed forces after high school so the male MBBS students will be roughly the same age or only a year or so younger than those of us who are attending close to or right after undergrad. So really age is not a MAJOR issue to those concerned in terms of post graduation training.

Living is reasonable if you partner up with others but can be expensive if you want to live alone. Food is DELICIOUS and cheap at most places. There is LOTS to eat, I mean a LOT. Some foods are wierd like ice cream b/w actual bread but most are REALLY good. And guys, the women here are well.........WOW and quite friendly. That's all I'm going to say about that to not offend any women on this forum. Honestly, at a glance Singapore is just like the US but about 15,000 smaller so person/land ration can become evident.

I'm going to 2nd look days at 3 US MD schools that I am still considering as soon as I return. But it is going to be a VERY tough decision b/w my top US school choice and Duke-NUS. With Singapore developing at the rate it is and the US dollar weakening at the rate that it is, you should really take everything into consideration. If any questions, please send me a personal message. Good luck.

hey, i like the way you have commented about my country. Very positive feedback. Singapore is a food paradise.

 

[iTreg]

Hi, the wait is finally over for me.
The Rejection letter just came.

For future reference:
My MCAT score 30
VR 9
BS 10
PS 11

Theoretically, whoever wants to apply to DUKE-NUS intake are strongly “encourage” to work hard for a “substantially” higher score than that of my humiliating MCAT score.

I will rest my case.

 

[nimbusadjust120]

Hello Nimbu:

I was looking for people belonging to the "Singaporean wanting to enter medical school in the USA" club and I am glad to find one in you who is of a similar feather.

Do you happen to study in NUS and graduate from NUS, since you mentioned that you live near NUS?

I was looking through the profiles of some of the universities in the US and it seems that international applicants stand a better chance in private universities as opposed to state universities. Among the private universities, there's always the issue of insisting that pre-requisite coursework must be done in a US university, e.g. Yale University, Johns Hopkins. However, I know it is not totally impossible to get into a US university. An immunology prof told me that one of his student who had his coursework in done in NUS managed to gain entry into an MD-Ph.D program in University of Michigan @ Ann Arbor when I caught up with him. The chap who got in wasn't that exceptional (CAP close to 4.0/5, actually a little below 4.0, didn't have honors, but had a research masters and extensive research experience, according to the prof)

Anyway, how do you want to go about applying? I thought the best advice is to speak to Admissions Committees before applying. Another recommended move would be to convert the NUS grades to US equivalents through an agency like WES.

I did thought about Duke-NUS before and had discussions with friends. I do not perceive Duke-NUS as playing a role in making up the supply of doctors. This is not the case if you consider MOH's approach in recognising the number of degrees conferred by foreign universities. Furthermore, the undergraduate medical faculty at NUS increased their quota of undergraduates. I came to the conclusion that if one really want to specialise, it may be a little bit difficult if one goes to Duke-NUS, because their primary goal is to produce clinician-scientists, and it seems likely they would serve out their bond in a role as a clinician scientist. I did speak to a staff at Duke-NUS out of curiosity and the perception I get is that they do not appear supportive of the fact that the applicant states that he/she ultimately wants to practise medicine (as opposed to a clinician scientist).

Say hey nimbus NOT nimbu..

I am not from NUS. I am staying near there but it does not mean i am studying there. I am going to the US to complete my pre-req, pre-med and get my major then move onto med sch.