Duke v. WashU

[atastyburger123]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Full tuition scholarship at WashU vs. 12k/yr for tuition at Duke (after partial tuition scholarship + outside scholarship for med students staying in the southeast). I like Duke slightly more (1 yr preclinical + P/F) and Duke is driving distance from home (big plus), but WashU is cheaper and better-renowned. Duke would end up ~60k more expensive over four years and I could buy plenty of flights home from St. Louis with what I'd be saving. No parental support, so would still end up taking plenty of loans at either school to pay for cost of living.

What would you do? I appreciate any input.

 

[whatsupdr]

Duke

 

[Limbo123]

I'd take Duke too. 12k/year is nothing.

 

[atastyburger123]

I'd take Duke too. 12k/year is nothing.

My gut instinct is that it's not that big a deal, but when I crunch the numbers that 60k balloons to 100k by the time I would start paying it off. That's a new car and a down payment on a nice house.

 

[Limbo123]

My gut instinct is that it's not that big a deal, but when I crunch the numbers that 60k balloons to 100k by the time I would start paying it off. That's a new car and a down payment on a nice house.

Either way, it's just imaginary money at that point. It doesn't make much of a difference if you're $100,000 or $200,000 in debt when you start residency. It just means you'll be paying it off for longer.

 

[jebelali]

Duke actually has more recognition than WashU but that's my opinion. I'd say duke is better if it is a better fit (family, curriculum). What really turns me off washu, and it may just be my interview day, is that students felt a bit rigid and unfriendly and it made me think it was a product of the second year grading system

 

[trynahelp]

What about place? How do you feel about Durham vs. St. Louis? Outside culture?

I don't think 60k is that much, especially for schools of this quality. Always go where you'll be happiest (given pretty equal financials), and it seems like that would be Duke! Can't go wrong either way though, congrats on a good cycle!

 

[WedgeDawg]

Differences in "renown" are going to be totally negligible between these two schools, and the cost difference isn't really that much in the grand scheme of things. I would go to Duke in your situation, but you're very lucky to be in a position where it's impossible to really go wrong either way.

 

[Amba]

Biased since I'm a current student at WashU, but I would say WashU. Name recognition and reputation between the two is basically equivalent. 60K is not an insignificant amount of money. Barnes is an awesome hospital to train at clinically. There are some curriculum changes in the works at WashU for your class (imo the current curriculum is great) that will make the first couple years even better. PM me if you have any specific questions.

 

[Dence]

I'm of the opinion that "reputation" doesn't mean much unless you're either 1) comparing drastically different schools or 2) dead set on matching into a hyper competitive specialty at that specific school. Duke and WashU are pretty equivalent for reputation, so this comes down to other factors.

 

[Willy38]

WashU

 

[ElanaSilogram]

If you think you'd be happier living with Durham, I'd probably pick Duke. Prestige difference is negligible and you said that you like Duke's less traditional curriculum more. If you believe that these factors will increase your quality of life (and hopefully translate to improved performance in school), it could potentially be worth up to 100K in loan debt, except maybe if you're planning to pursue a very low paying field of medicine.

 

[Cognovi]

Full tuition scholarship at WashU vs. 12k/yr for tuition at Duke (after partial tuition scholarship + outside scholarship for med students staying in the southeast). I like Duke slightly more (1 yr preclinical + P/F) and Duke is driving distance from home (big plus), but WashU is cheaper and better-renowned. Duke would end up ~60k more expensive over four years and I could buy plenty of flights home from St. Louis with what I'd be saving. No parental support, so would still end up taking plenty of loans at either school to pay for cost of living.

What would you do? I appreciate any input.

I was in your position and chose WashU. I had a full tuition scholarship from WashU and acceptance from Duke. My home is also driving distance to Duke. I too liked the idea of a compressed preclinical curriculum and P/F. Yet I didn't wait for Duke financial aid to make an offer because they were unlikely to beat what I had already. They are equivalent in reputation. Residency directors rate them the same (4.5 out of 5 from USNews survey). People at both places do well on Step 1 regardless of the differences in curriculum and grading (average 247 at WashU vs. 245 at Duke). The research year might mess up the Step 2 scores at Duke (average 250 at WashU vs. 242 at Duke), but that doesn't matter that much. You're able to do research at WashU, though the time available is less overall and more fragmented than at Duke. However, starting early and being able to put in time during the less compressed preclinical curriculum gives you the advantage of getting out posters/publications before applying for residency (I spent 8 months total in M1/2 summer and M4 elective/vacation time vs. typically 10 mo in M3 at Duke). The P/F comparison will likely be moot after you make your decision. I've been pushing to make the second year at WashU P/F for more than three years and it has finally gained majority support among all classes of students and faculty educators/administrative leaders. Final approvals from the department chairs are forthcoming in May and early June. The match lists at both are pretty good.

(Of course, a lot of what will determine your success and happiness are intangible or difficult to predict ahead of time: friends, mentors, leadership opportunities, etc.)

Overall, I think the reputation, quality of education, student quality, and location for these two schools come out on a par. Anyone that claims otherwise either is deluded, biased, or has some niche academic interest that maybe one institution is better at. But consider that $60k-100k is not a trivial debt burden to bring into your late 20s and 30s, and go to WashU.

 

[Duke1K]

I'm obviously biased as well, but I just wanted to emphasize:
1) The one-year P/F preclinical curriculum makes all the difference in the world. You'll hate the preclinical year at first, and then you'll love it. You'll wonder how students at other schools survive having basic science didactics for 2 years. With Step scores being equivalent, the additional advantage is that you'll be in the hospital earlier - therefore you can actually tailor your research towards your intended specialty.
2) There's no guarantee that WashU will be P/F by the time you're a second year. There's also no guarantee that they won't have some sort of internal ranking system.
3) Anyone who does research knows that it's extremely difficult to be a first author in a good journal by doing research part-time. You need a project to call your own. The point of the Duke third year is to give you that. Plus, you'll be eligible for several prestigious research fellowships (internal and external) without having to take a year off. If you get one of these, you'll make a huge dent in the 60K difference. If your grades are good going into your fourth year, you'll also be eligible for several Duke internal scholarships that cover full tuition.

Combined with your personal preferences and proximity to family, choose Duke =).

 

[Amba]

2) There's no guarantee that WashU will be P/F by the time you're a second year. There's also no guarantee that they won't have some sort of internal ranking system.

Just to clarify on this, if we go P/F (and it sounds like it is basically a done deal), it will not be internally ranked, at least according to my sources.

 

[Cognovi]

You'll wonder how students at other schools survive having basic science didactics for 2 years.

Med students are generally unimaginative of alternative curricular policies. Students at graded preclinical schools wonder how students at P/F schools find motivation to study when they don't get recognized for their hard work. Students at P/F schools wonder how students at graded schools find the ability to cope with the stress. And students at schools with half graded, half P/F wonder both of these things as well. People prefer 1) the status quo, and 2) the system that they are used to and expended energy getting through. It's a cognitive bias. People at other schools wonder how Duke students can possibly learn the basic sciences well in one year. The reality is that you don't have to because you take Step 1 after clerkships and can take as much time out of the research year to learn/re-learn the basic sciences for Step 1. There are many ways to skin a cat but you end up with the same outcome.

Just to clarify on this, if we go P/F (and it sounds like it is basically a done deal), it will not be internally ranked, at least according to my sources.

I want to confirm and clarify the recommendation on how class rank will work if/when second year is made P/F. If you fail a course in the preclinical years, your class rank will drop, as it does currently. If you pass with a 99 on the final exam, it will be the same as if you passed with an 70 on the exam, as both will be transcribed as Pass. If everyone passes all preclinical courses, everyone enters clerkships with the same class rank. Theoretically, preclinical performance will be weighted 40% and core clerkships 60% for the purposes of class rank. Practically, the core clerkships will provide almost all of the discriminating function for class rank, as it does currently. Class rank is actually tertiles and never more granular. The top tertile is eligible for AOA, which ultimately elects one-sixth of the graduating class per national policy. The top performer or two in some but not all preclinical courses will get recognized with a prize, as they do currently, that nobody really knows about. As at Duke, there are also a small number of internal scholarships and prizes for high performance going into fourth year that also nobody really knows about.

 

[Duke1K]

Med students are generally unimaginative of alternative curricular policies. Students at graded preclinical schools wonder how students at P/F schools find motivation to study when they don't get recognized for their hard work. Students at P/F schools wonder how students at graded schools find the ability to cope with the stress. And students at schools with half graded, half P/F wonder both of these things as well. People prefer 1) the status quo, and 2) the system that they are used to and expended energy getting through. It's a cognitive bias. People at other schools wonder how Duke students can possibly learn the basic sciences well in one year. The reality is that you don't have to because you take Step 1 after clerkships and can take as much time out of the research year to learn/re-learn the basic sciences for Step 1. There are many ways to skin a cat but you end up with the same outcome.

Not exactly true regarding Duke's Step 1 study schedule, but yeah I'd agree with your general sentiment. I'd also add that there's a reason why schools over the past decade are moving towards P/F and are shortening their preclinical curricula. Step 1 scores being equal, it doesn't quite make sense to spend an extra 6-12 months on largely clinically irrelevant material. The counterargument is that the basic science foundation prepares students to be better physicians, scientists, academics, etc. - which no one can really verify, but it may be true, who knows. My main point is that many students don't really enjoy the first two years of medical school - anecdotal of course, but I don't know anyone at a 1 or 1.5 preclinical year school who wishes their school was 2 years preclinical, whereas I know plenty of the opposite - so the prevailing view at Duke is that we don't get shortchanged on this deal at all.

People can wonder all they want about Duke learning the basic sciences, but hey, if the proof of the pudding is in the eating, our Step 1 averages/match lists turn out just fine.

 

[Ad2b]

Duke. Why?

Everything above + Coach K. 🙂

 

[Cognovi]

Not exactly true regarding Duke's Step 1 study schedule, but yeah I'd agree with your general sentiment. I'd also add that there's a reason why schools over the past decade are moving towards P/F and are shortening their preclinical curricula. Step 1 scores being equal, it doesn't quite make sense to spend an extra 6-12 months on largely clinically irrelevant material. The counterargument is that the basic science foundation prepares students to be better physicians, scientists, academics, etc. - which no one can really verify, but it may be true, who knows. My main point is that many students don't really enjoy the first two years of medical school - anecdotal of course, but I don't know anyone at a 1 or 1.5 preclinical year school who wishes their school was 2 years preclinical, whereas I know plenty of the opposite - so the prevailing view at Duke is that we don't get shortchanged on this deal at all.

People can wonder all they want about Duke learning the basic sciences, but hey, if the proof of the pudding is in the eating, our Step 1 averages/match lists turn out just fine.

We can agree here that the movement toward P/F and shorter preclinicals are reasonable. There are two ways to reducing the amount of clinically irrelevant material in the preclinical curriculum. The first is to selectively cut the clinically irrelevant material. The second is to reduce the duration of the preclinical curriculum and force cuts across the board. You get the same mix of high yield and low yield information in a shorter time window. The former is hard to accomplish politically and practically. Thus Duke and others have opted for the latter and know that smart med students will be able to make it up on their own.