Hopkins vs. Stanford vs. Full-Ride WashU

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strawberries11

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Hi everyone!

Very grateful to be choosing between Hopkins, Stanford, and a full-ride at WashU! I'm wondering if anyone (especially current med students who faced similar choices) has any insight to share. I'm interested in a competitive specialty (thinking ortho or some other surgical specialty), and am also very interested in public health/health policy (likely will do dual MD-MPH).

The $$ is obviously a huge draw for WashU as I'd otherwise probably be taking almost the max amount out in loans at any school, and WashU is a great place! Hopkins has the #1 public health program, is close to home, and has a shortened pre-clinical which is really appealing to me. Stanford also has top-notch opportunities especially for the "doctor+" of course!

Grateful to any thoughts that might help in this last month before calling it. Thanks!

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First of all congrats on getting such a sweet deal. :)! Awesome choices, you can't really go wrong here.

Stanford is great but based on your pros, I think the real choice is between WUSTL vs JHU. Personally, it's a no-brainer, dude(tte). Take the full ride. 250k is going to turn into 500k range by the time you finish residency. At the very least, ask the two schools if they can provide any more financial aid to level the field a bit. Also it is possible that your interest in MPH may shift in couple of years or might decide you don't necessarily need to get a MPH to achieve what you want. My friend's brother picked JHU over another prestigious school due to MPH consideration but ended up not doing MPH. He ended up doing well anyway getting into the residency he wanted but it's something to consider.
 
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Orthopedics: The earlier you can make a decision about specialties, the easier your life will be. This is more true with competitive specialties, so let's go with ortho for now. Among the choices you listed, WashU has the highest ranked orthopedic surgery residency by reputation as reported by Doximity. It is second only to HSS. There are multiple related advantages. First, one typically has a higher chance of matching to a home program compared to outside students. You have the best chance of getting a WashU ortho residency position if you are a top applicant from WashU compared to someone with similar numbers from another school. Second, your home mentors are more likely to be among the most well-known in the field and will have relatively more influence through their letters of recommendation and calls on your behalf to other programs if you want to get out of St Louis. Third, ortho has such a strong presence at WashU that all students take a four week orthopedics rotation on the third-year surgery core clerkship (some opt out by doing plastic surgery). You will have a well-organized orthopedic surgery experience as a third-year student and can definitively verify early on your intention to apply to orthopedics. Of course there is never a guarantee; you still have to be a good student and lucky to match in something competitive. The match list this year for ortho (out of 91 matched people in the class overall) was HSS, WashU, UCSF, Jefferson, UCLA and Cedars-Sinai (couple), Iowa, Oregon, Rochester, Ohio State.

Public health: The public health program at WashU is very young and the joint MD-MPH program is even younger (approved in the last two years). The MPH is administered through the School of Social Work rather than a standalone School of Public Health. Hopkins has a much more established reputation. You might care about this if your vision of a career primarily revolves around public health rather than academic or private practice in orthopedic surgery. My opinion is that WashU's strengths are on the quantitative side of the public health spectrum rather than the social work side. For that, you can find ortho faculty who do health services research and clinical outcomes research, who have masters degrees in clinical investigation (MSCI) from WashU or in public health from elsewhere. If you end up pursuing a non-ortho surgical specialty, it is common for residents at WashU to get a masters in population health science, which is essentially based in the department of surgery. If your interest in public health leans on the quantitative research aspects of the field rather than the fuzzy policy aspects, there are multiple strong dual-degree options at WashU to prolong your education with in this manner. If instead you think more like a public health commissioner, med-peds physician, primary care, volunteer with MSF, spend years in Uganda and Malawi type person, there is also that option through WashU and I can put you in touch with people like that, but the path is not clear cut and a very different direction from most who go into the competitive specialties.

Money: You said you would be maxing loans at Hopkins/Stanford and this is really the kicker. You have a chance to be in the 15% of medical students graduating without educational debt. Imagine you're a fourth year student with a mountain of debt, but your dream programs are HSS, UCSF, MGH. Do you let the high cost of living in these places and your poor financial situation influence your rank list? Imagine when you're a resident and making decisions about the size of your shoebox studio apartment in Manhattan, or whether you can eat out with your co-residents, or whether you can afford hospital parking in San Francisco, when you have loan payments taking up 15-40% of your take-home income. What about a Roth IRA, disability insurance, emergency funds, health savings account? What if you have a kid? Surgical residency is a long time to be living ascetically even in your rare off days and vacation time. First, I'd recommend calculating roughly how much debt you would have coming out of med school (is it 100k or 250k?) and chew on that figure a bit. Second, I'd recommend asking some residents about how their debt affects their life.

Find me giving a tour at second look weekend or PM if you want to talk to people at WashU who matched ortho (plenty of this), or are doing MD-MPH program, or have a full ride (plenty of this).
 
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Dude take the full ride! The caliber is basically equal, and given that you got into all three, I'm sure you can do amazing things anywhere! But graduating with no debt will let you do whatever you want in medicine, whether it's ortho, global health, or something you discover along the way.

Stanford weather though. Congrats on everything!
 
Wash U. Take a year between M3 and M4 to go get your MPH at JHU
 
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Wash U. Take a year between M3 and M4 to go get your MPH at JHU
+1 You don't have to do the MPH at the same school where you do your medical degree. Definitely go to JHU for public health if you can, neither Stanford nor WUSTL compare.

Also if you are considering a career in public health, saving the $$ now and using it to pay for an MPH will enable you to take a position in public health that might not pay as well as one in clinical medicine. With 250k in debt, you won't have that option.
 
Orthopedics: The earlier you can make a decision about specialties, the easier your life will be. This is more true with competitive specialties, so let's go with ortho for now. Among the choices you listed, WashU has the highest ranked orthopedic surgery residency by reputation as reported by Doximity. It is second only to HSS. There are multiple related advantages. First, one typically has a higher chance of matching to a home program compared to outside students. You have the best chance of getting a WashU ortho residency position if you are a top applicant from WashU compared to someone with similar numbers from another school. Second, your home mentors are more likely to be among the most well-known in the field and will have relatively more influence through their letters of recommendation and calls on your behalf to other programs if you want to get out of St Louis. Third, ortho has such a strong presence at WashU that all students take a four week orthopedics rotation on the third-year surgery core clerkship (some opt out by doing plastic surgery). You will have a well-organized orthopedic surgery experience as a third-year student and can definitively verify early on your intention to apply to orthopedics. Of course there is never a guarantee; you still have to be a good student and lucky to match in something competitive. The match list this year for ortho (out of 91 matched people in the class overall) was HSS, WashU, UCSF, Jefferson, UCLA and Cedars-Sinai (couple), Iowa, Oregon, Rochester, Ohio State.

Public health: The public health program at WashU is very young and the joint MD-MPH program is even younger (approved in the last two years). The MPH is administered through the School of Social Work rather than a standalone School of Public Health. Hopkins has a much more established reputation. You might care about this if your vision of a career primarily revolves around public health rather than academic or private practice in orthopedic surgery. My opinion is that WashU's strengths are on the quantitative side of the public health spectrum rather than the social work side. For that, you can find ortho faculty who do health services research and clinical outcomes research, who have masters degrees in clinical investigation (MSCI) from WashU or in public health from elsewhere. If you end up pursuing a non-ortho surgical specialty, it is common for residents at WashU to get a masters in population health science, which is essentially based in the department of surgery. If your interest in public health leans on the quantitative research aspects of the field rather than the fuzzy policy aspects, there are multiple strong dual-degree options at WashU to prolong your education with in this manner. If instead you think more like a public health commissioner, med-peds physician, primary care, volunteer with MSF, spend years in Uganda and Malawi type person, there is also that option through WashU and I can put you in touch with people like that, but the path is not clear cut and a very different direction from most who go into the competitive specialties.

Money: You said you would be maxing loans at Hopkins/Stanford and this is really the kicker. You have a chance to be in the 15% of medical students graduating without educational debt. Imagine you're a fourth year student with a mountain of debt, but your dream programs are HSS, UCSF, MGH. Do you let the high cost of living in these places and your poor financial situation influence your rank list? Imagine when you're a resident and making decisions about the size of your shoebox studio apartment in Manhattan, or whether you can eat out with your co-residents, or whether you can afford hospital parking in San Francisco, when you have loan payments taking up 15-40% of your take-home income. What about a Roth IRA, disability insurance, emergency funds, health savings account? What if you have a kid? Surgical residency is a long time to be living ascetically even in your rare off days and vacation time. First, I'd recommend calculating roughly how much debt you would have coming out of med school (is it 100k or 250k?) and chew on that figure a bit. Second, I'd recommend asking some residents about how their debt affects their life.

Find me giving a tour at second look weekend or PM if you want to talk to people at WashU who matched ortho (plenty of this), or are doing MD-MPH program, or have a full ride (plenty of this).

Sorry to hijack this thread, but is there a reason there is such a disparity between US News hospital rankings and residency rankings on Doximity? I'm assuming it's because the former may be more geared to patient outcomes, while the latter is determined by research output, people going into fellowships, and reputation among those in the field?
 
Full-ride or full-tuition? Usually full-ride means living expenses are covered.
 
I have friends at Stanford who absolutely love it there. Some of them have backgrounds in global health, and Stanford has funded them to take global health trips pretty often during breaks (for example, have a friend who has done projects to treat for clubfoot in subsaharan Africa and India during spring and winter breaks of both 1st and 2nd year). Stanford is also very flexible about taking years off and for when you want to take boards and stuff - two colleagues were able to leverage this to take a year off to do research on cognitive HIV in kenya and to pursue other related interests. They also have a great global health program and have many connections with UCSF's global health institute. In terms of outreach, I can personally say your opportunities are not limited at all at Stanford.
 
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such amazing choices. no advice for you, rather just wishing you luck with the decision
 
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Sorry to hijack this thread, but is there a reason there is such a disparity between US News hospital rankings and residency rankings on Doximity? I'm assuming it's because the former may be more geared to patient outcomes, while the latter is determined by research output, people going into fellowships, and reputation among those in the field?

USNWR hospital rankings are rankings of hospitals based on 27.5%-weighted specialist-surveyed reputation for care of complex/difficult cases (the rest depends on various patient-related outcome, process, and structural measures). The magazine explicitly states that low-reputation hospitals can be ranked highly if they have high clinical measures. The exception is for four specialties that are ranked only based on reputation: ophthalmology, psychiatry, rehabilitation, and rheumatology.

Doximity residency rankings are rankings of programs based on 100%-weighted specialist-surveyed reputation for training/education of residents.

These are very different rankings. Excellent training opportunities are not necessarily associated with patient safety rules or with a high nursing ratio or related metrics.

USNWR hospital rankings are intended for patients. Doximity residency rankings are intended for medical students.

The specialties are defined very differently, so comparisons between the rankings are often apples to oranges, or apples to applesauce, or apples to cranapple cocktail. For USNWR hospital rankings, the medical and surgical specialties for a given organ are often combined even though for the purposes of resident training, there can be conflict. For USNWR hospital rankings, the medical subspecialties are often separated even though for the purposes of resident training, one might want a well-rounded experience in general and subspecialty internal medicine. For USNWR hospital rankings, adult and pediatric ratings are separated even though for some specialties, residents see both adults and children.
 
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That's along the lines of what I suspected. Thanks for clarifying.
 
Take the money... and like others said, take a year off to get an MPH at Hopkins (or elsewhere). Easy slam dunk. Congrats on the great options! :)
 
As someone who just matched ortho. WashU and it's not even close. Congratulations.
 
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