Last edited:
Johns Hopkins v. Cleveland Clinic (full-scholarship) [serious]
- Thread starter troioi91
- Start date
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2009
- Messages
- 1,603
- Reaction score
- 268
facts: getting a long white coat as a medical student isn't a plus. it's a nonfactor. every school has grades. thats how you determine who gets AOA or not. there is no such thing as true pass fail as everything school records the grades for this purpse and for class standing for the dean's letter for residency. not taking exams/shelfs will be a disadvantage to you on step2ck.
while it might be free at cleveland, i think that's the only advantage there. everything else...Hopkins >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cleveland
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2011
- Messages
- 786
- Reaction score
- 204
Agree with above, esp since it doesnt seem like you are that excited about PBL or research-- both of which are huge components of CCLCM's curriculum.
You should wait for financial aid from Hopkins before making a decision, but it seems like they're very generous this year. With that in mind, you're obviously leaning toward Hopkins. Even if the aid is just okay, Hopkins should come out ahead, especially considering the mandatory extra year at CCLCM.
mmmcdowe
Duke of minimal vowels
Staff member
Administrator
Volunteer Staff
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2008
- Messages
- 9,935
- Reaction score
- 1,970
Considering your preference for the people at Hopkins, that's probably the better choice for you.
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3
- Reaction score
- 3
I agree with the above posters. It sounds like Hopkins is a "Dream" school of yours. Your cons for CCLCM may be serious concerns while the cons for Hopkins don't carry as much weight.
I would also like to add that even though both schools have an amazing reputation, Hopkins is a top 3 medical school... it will open up the most doors, give you the best connections, and ultimately give you opportunities that CCLCM can't do at that same level.
I also think you should consider the extra 5th year at CCLCM as an opportunity cost of not making "doctor money". Depending on what specialty you ultimately end up going for, the extra year of "doctor money" at Hopkins would make up for the full tuition at CCLCM. People have talked about this before on other threads.
Overall, I feel that you are leaning towards Hopkins based off of your pros/cons list. You can't really go wrong with either school but you don't want to regret turning down a top 3 medical school in the nation in Hopkins.
I would also like to add that even though both schools have an amazing reputation, Hopkins is a top 3 medical school... it will open up the most doors, give you the best connections, and ultimately give you opportunities that CCLCM can't do at that same level.
I also think you should consider the extra 5th year at CCLCM as an opportunity cost of not making "doctor money". Depending on what specialty you ultimately end up going for, the extra year of "doctor money" at Hopkins would make up for the full tuition at CCLCM. People have talked about this before on other threads.
Overall, I feel that you are leaning towards Hopkins based off of your pros/cons list. You can't really go wrong with either school but you don't want to regret turning down a top 3 medical school in the nation in Hopkins.
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2012
- Messages
- 450
- Reaction score
- 531
Congrats on the recent acceptances! I'll be attending CCLCM, went through the whole choosing process, and have had a year interacting with the people at CCLCM (I deferred enrollment a year), so I'll just throw out my perspective and play devil's advocate a bit to other replies on this thread.
I lol when people hate on Cleveland (especially those who probably haven't lived there), especially since in this case you're not comparing it to NYC (and yes, you can travel to DC and other east coast cities with relative ease from Baltimore, but I guess I question how often that'll happen in med school/if it's worth choosing a school based on). My only point is, I don't know that location is the killer everybody wants it to be. I do love the "Cleveland Tourist Video" though, definitely a bit of fun 🙂 I encourage you to think outside of it though - as a mid sized city, Cleveland has a lot of areas for culture, nightlife, etc (I say this as somebody who's actually been out there).
As for long white coats, probably a nonfactor, though the mentality of the faculty, that you are junior colleagues, might be nice. That being said, can't imagine Hopkins faculty don't know they're dealing with supremely talented individuals and won't act accordingly as well.
To clarify no shelf exams, I believe you have the option to take them (and most do), they just aren't used to assign you a traditional grade, so the point about not being prepared for step 2ck seems to be moot (granted you need to be self-motivated because you won't have a grade driving you to study, but I think CCLCM is pretty clear that's the type of student they're looking for anyway). Also, CCLCM seems to generally match just fine, so I don't know I'd not choose a school because you won't be forced to take a test and that may contribute to a lower score on an exam that is used for something the students at the school do fine on anyway.
As for community health, nobody will beat Hopkins in the public health arena, but it's about thresholds. I encourage you to look into some of the work going on between the Cleveland Clinic, the local Department of Public Health, Case, and especially Metro Hospital. I personally found the threshold of interesting work to be met, and that's as somebody who cared enough about public health to get an MPH. It's possible you, as somebody ultimately looking into derm anyway, may as well.
Concerning the people, you've got a small sample size (n of 1 day), but obviously you've got to go off what you saw (I wish schools did a better job letting applicants interact with current students, but that's for a whole different thread...). I will report that most people I talked to said the atmosphere was almost familial at second look, and I've got multiple friends at CCLCM/Case (both set up similarly) and they are by far the least stressed of my friends in med school. I actually chose the school because I got the opposite vibe (the vibe the stress levels are relatively low). My interactions with the school and future classmates over this year seem to add credence to my initial observation, though I am not physicially in Cleveland and thus can't be 100% sure everything will be peachy come July. That's not to discount your opinion, just saying it could have been a bad interview day, etc.
As for CCLCM not opening the same doors as Hopkins, I actually don't buy that it's a sufficiently extreme phenomenon to warrant basing the decision off of. If you want to go into academic medicine, that's what CCLCM was made for, and it's just hard for me to imagine Hopkins offers much beyond marginal gains. If you want to go and just practice, CCLCM matches well and surely won't be a hindrance (though obviously going to Hopkins does give you the inside lane to their residency programs, so I actually would call that a benefit depending on your personal goals). My largest concession might be if you want a policy job, especially one only tangentially related to healthcare, where the Cleveland Clinic name won't be as mainstream (though in such an instance, if you're not going to be at Hopkins, Harvard, etc, Mayo and Cleveland are the good names to have behind you). Obviously just my opinion, but it is informed by several of my own work experiences in the public sector. Thus, the whole top 3 thing is, much like the long white coat, a nonfactor to me because the outcome, what role you'll have in the future and what you'll be able to do while in med school, probably isn't all that drastically different and probably comes down much more to you the individual than to the school in this case. Of course, that last statement's validity does depend partly on what your ultimate career goals are.
Anyway, if it's me in this case (and last cycle I was in a relatively similar situation), I take CCLCM in a heartbeat for some of the reasons I listed here and for many others I've listed in other threads. Again just for me, event without the financial upside CCLCM was already worth throwing in the ring with the traditional powers-the money just made it that much easier to make the choice. For you, it seems if finances weren't an option you'd go to Hopkins, but I guess I question whether the (in my opinion) relatively small value add Hopkins offers is worth more any financial difference.
Totally get that I'm not you, and thus my goals and analysis may not completely apply. Truth is you've got top notch choices, so you aren't going to go "wrong." Just don't sit and agonize over the counterfactual analysis after you've made your choice!
Congrats again!
I lol when people hate on Cleveland (especially those who probably haven't lived there), especially since in this case you're not comparing it to NYC (and yes, you can travel to DC and other east coast cities with relative ease from Baltimore, but I guess I question how often that'll happen in med school/if it's worth choosing a school based on). My only point is, I don't know that location is the killer everybody wants it to be. I do love the "Cleveland Tourist Video" though, definitely a bit of fun 🙂 I encourage you to think outside of it though - as a mid sized city, Cleveland has a lot of areas for culture, nightlife, etc (I say this as somebody who's actually been out there).
As for long white coats, probably a nonfactor, though the mentality of the faculty, that you are junior colleagues, might be nice. That being said, can't imagine Hopkins faculty don't know they're dealing with supremely talented individuals and won't act accordingly as well.
To clarify no shelf exams, I believe you have the option to take them (and most do), they just aren't used to assign you a traditional grade, so the point about not being prepared for step 2ck seems to be moot (granted you need to be self-motivated because you won't have a grade driving you to study, but I think CCLCM is pretty clear that's the type of student they're looking for anyway). Also, CCLCM seems to generally match just fine, so I don't know I'd not choose a school because you won't be forced to take a test and that may contribute to a lower score on an exam that is used for something the students at the school do fine on anyway.
As for community health, nobody will beat Hopkins in the public health arena, but it's about thresholds. I encourage you to look into some of the work going on between the Cleveland Clinic, the local Department of Public Health, Case, and especially Metro Hospital. I personally found the threshold of interesting work to be met, and that's as somebody who cared enough about public health to get an MPH. It's possible you, as somebody ultimately looking into derm anyway, may as well.
Concerning the people, you've got a small sample size (n of 1 day), but obviously you've got to go off what you saw (I wish schools did a better job letting applicants interact with current students, but that's for a whole different thread...). I will report that most people I talked to said the atmosphere was almost familial at second look, and I've got multiple friends at CCLCM/Case (both set up similarly) and they are by far the least stressed of my friends in med school. I actually chose the school because I got the opposite vibe (the vibe the stress levels are relatively low). My interactions with the school and future classmates over this year seem to add credence to my initial observation, though I am not physicially in Cleveland and thus can't be 100% sure everything will be peachy come July. That's not to discount your opinion, just saying it could have been a bad interview day, etc.
As for CCLCM not opening the same doors as Hopkins, I actually don't buy that it's a sufficiently extreme phenomenon to warrant basing the decision off of. If you want to go into academic medicine, that's what CCLCM was made for, and it's just hard for me to imagine Hopkins offers much beyond marginal gains. If you want to go and just practice, CCLCM matches well and surely won't be a hindrance (though obviously going to Hopkins does give you the inside lane to their residency programs, so I actually would call that a benefit depending on your personal goals). My largest concession might be if you want a policy job, especially one only tangentially related to healthcare, where the Cleveland Clinic name won't be as mainstream (though in such an instance, if you're not going to be at Hopkins, Harvard, etc, Mayo and Cleveland are the good names to have behind you). Obviously just my opinion, but it is informed by several of my own work experiences in the public sector. Thus, the whole top 3 thing is, much like the long white coat, a nonfactor to me because the outcome, what role you'll have in the future and what you'll be able to do while in med school, probably isn't all that drastically different and probably comes down much more to you the individual than to the school in this case. Of course, that last statement's validity does depend partly on what your ultimate career goals are.
Anyway, if it's me in this case (and last cycle I was in a relatively similar situation), I take CCLCM in a heartbeat for some of the reasons I listed here and for many others I've listed in other threads. Again just for me, event without the financial upside CCLCM was already worth throwing in the ring with the traditional powers-the money just made it that much easier to make the choice. For you, it seems if finances weren't an option you'd go to Hopkins, but I guess I question whether the (in my opinion) relatively small value add Hopkins offers is worth more any financial difference.
Totally get that I'm not you, and thus my goals and analysis may not completely apply. Truth is you've got top notch choices, so you aren't going to go "wrong." Just don't sit and agonize over the counterfactual analysis after you've made your choice!
Congrats again!
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2014
- Messages
- 90
- Reaction score
- 68
@jturkel : I'm pretty sure some schools have true pass/fail, and refuse to rank their students (and have no AOA; HMS/Yale come to mind). While I think Hopkins does have AOA, if I'm not mistaken, they only release it after matching, so its a non-factor.
To the OP, I was in a similar situation, but I turned down CCLCM due to personal preferences. In the end, I tried to eliminate money as a factor from my decision, as I was repeatedly told not to choose a school based on finances. Also, don't discount JHUs financial aid. If you qualify for any aid, their unit loan is only 22.5k/yr, which is manageable even during residency (see medloans).
That being said, CCLCM is amazing and can contend with Hopkins on its own, money aside. Just try to figure out your stance on the main differences between the two places:
-Class size and learning style (do you prefer a close tight knit group with lots of learning from each other (PBL), or do you prefer a larger class with more traditional lectures?)
-Environment (Cleveland v. Baltimore: don't underestimate this... it is 4/5 years of your life... thats like 5%+, more if you consider it should be your "best" years)
-Regional Bias (Look at the match lists, most people end up at their home institution. This could be a factor if you really want to go to either place for residency)
-Required Research (Both places have required research, but JHU does seem more flexible/less. Ask your self what role you want research to play in your career)
-Faculty Involvement (I'm sure both places have great mentorship, but CCLCM does give a more "treat you like colleagues" vibe that might be beneficial)
-Prestige (Hate to throw it in here, but while both seem to be basically the same in medicine, outside the JHU name might open more doors)
Congratulations on the conundrum.
To the OP, I was in a similar situation, but I turned down CCLCM due to personal preferences. In the end, I tried to eliminate money as a factor from my decision, as I was repeatedly told not to choose a school based on finances. Also, don't discount JHUs financial aid. If you qualify for any aid, their unit loan is only 22.5k/yr, which is manageable even during residency (see medloans).
That being said, CCLCM is amazing and can contend with Hopkins on its own, money aside. Just try to figure out your stance on the main differences between the two places:
-Class size and learning style (do you prefer a close tight knit group with lots of learning from each other (PBL), or do you prefer a larger class with more traditional lectures?)
-Environment (Cleveland v. Baltimore: don't underestimate this... it is 4/5 years of your life... thats like 5%+, more if you consider it should be your "best" years)
-Regional Bias (Look at the match lists, most people end up at their home institution. This could be a factor if you really want to go to either place for residency)
-Required Research (Both places have required research, but JHU does seem more flexible/less. Ask your self what role you want research to play in your career)
-Faculty Involvement (I'm sure both places have great mentorship, but CCLCM does give a more "treat you like colleagues" vibe that might be beneficial)
-Prestige (Hate to throw it in here, but while both seem to be basically the same in medicine, outside the JHU name might open more doors)
Congratulations on the conundrum.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2013
- Messages
- 176
- Reaction score
- 171
CCLCM has no grades, they get a portfolio instead of a dean's letter. Because of no grades, they're ineligible for AOA.
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2014
- Messages
- 90
- Reaction score
- 68
I haven't chosen yet, but I'm honing down on a school in the next week or so (probably HMS/JHU). As for "follow the money", some physicians have definitely told me to go with the cheapest option (and that seems to be the underlying theme in SDN), but only if it does not mean sacrificing my dream (ie. if you really want to go to school X, don't worry about the money unless the difference is like 150k+ (which it probably wont be). WCS, you'll be repaying loans for a bit). I know people keep saying where you go to medical school does not matter (and if its JHU v. CCLM it probably wont), but I still think it plays a role, just like undergrad.
As for the Unit Loan, the way that financial aid at most top schools works is that they determine what you "can pay" (Expected Family Contribution- EFC) and subtract it from the Cost of Attendance (COA). What remains is your Need, which they meet with the Unit Loan, and free money (Scholarship).
So say JHU COA is 80k, and your EFC is 20k. Then your aid package would be
EFC - 20k / y
Unit Loan - 22.5k /y
Scholarship - 37.5k /y
Thus, if you where to have 0 EFC, the difference between CCLCM and JHU would be basically 0 (as you would need loans to cover living expenses in Cleveland anyways). The difference increases however, as your EFC increases (then the cost difference is roughly your EFC*4) or if you have a full ride (rather than tuition).
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2013
- Messages
- 38,612
- Reaction score
- 76,030
Long white coat, lol... Trust me, it is far better to not be confused for something you are not. Getting snagged by families, nurses, RTs, PTs, etc. every five seconds because you've got the doctor coat on is far more of a PITA than it will be worth, I promise you. Go to Hopkins, that extra year will cost you 200k of potential earnings, and you'll have to work your butt off to get it. Yeah, you'll have some solid research that you'll be forced to do, but you can get that at Hopkins if you'd like without spending the extra year and all of your summers slaving away in a lab.
I've always found the "doing a 5th year will cost you Dr $$$ NOOOO" an interesting argument, especially when you see schools like Yale and Duke bragging about free 5th years and how many students take advantage of them. Some top schools seem to pride themselves on how many students take a 5th year for research/ dual degrees etc. If you think that dual degrees / research year(s) are the last thing in the world you want to do (because of $$ loss or otherwise), CCLCM would not make sense. Following that logic, you should avoid doing an MPH or a research year at JHU like the plague because that will lose you earnings $$ on top of the extra you'd be shelling out. I doubt this is your biggest consideration, but I wanted to throw it out there because I find this fear of potential earnings loss not the most rational.
Imagine how many years of $$$ making people are wasting by not skipping grades in elementary/middle/high school! And taking 4 years for college? Taking time off? Perish the thought. It's too late for regrets, though. Thinking into the future, the longer you go without retiring, the more $ you'll make! It would probably be best if you never retire because that way you will maximize your earnings.
In any event, only you (and your family) can say how much the difference in cost is worth. Is JHU worth 100K more? 150? 200? Putting a price on it is largely subjective and consequently very challenging.
Disclaimer: I am pondering JHU vs free tuition (not CCLCM). I am not sure what my (arbitrary) cost difference cutoff is, but I think JHU is over it, unfortunately. Regardless of what you choose, best of luck to you! Seize your own success and happiness.
Imagine how many years of $$$ making people are wasting by not skipping grades in elementary/middle/high school! And taking 4 years for college? Taking time off? Perish the thought. It's too late for regrets, though. Thinking into the future, the longer you go without retiring, the more $ you'll make! It would probably be best if you never retire because that way you will maximize your earnings.
In any event, only you (and your family) can say how much the difference in cost is worth. Is JHU worth 100K more? 150? 200? Putting a price on it is largely subjective and consequently very challenging.
Disclaimer: I am pondering JHU vs free tuition (not CCLCM). I am not sure what my (arbitrary) cost difference cutoff is, but I think JHU is over it, unfortunately. Regardless of what you choose, best of luck to you! Seize your own success and happiness.
Always surprised by how many people talk about the "free" 5th years at other places as a positive and the 5th year at CCLCM as a negative. I guess if you win a Rhodes Scholar, you should decline it b/c of the potential income deficit... At several schools, nearly all the students take a 5th year, and this is especially important if you are interested in competitive specialties/research. There is not that much time in med school to do research while doing well in school and managing your lifestyle. The OP stated an interest in dermatology, a field where it is very common for med students to take a year off for research. The extra year should not be viewed at as a disadvantage.
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2009
- Messages
- 17,237
- Reaction score
- 13,032
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2009
- Messages
- 17,237
- Reaction score
- 13,032
Sad when someone thinks getting a long white coat and not having to take shelf exams are positives. She must be easily distracted by shiny objects.
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2009
- Messages
- 17,237
- Reaction score
- 13,032
Exactly, I don't understand that line of thinking of losing one year of attending salary. She has a freakin' FREE RIDE. Do they not know that you have to pay taxes on your attending salary and pay for necessity expenses, before you can pay off your student loans?
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2009
- Messages
- 17,237
- Reaction score
- 13,032
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2014
- Messages
- 90
- Reaction score
- 68
Don't let a couple of people get to you... SDN is not all bad.
It's just an online forum after all, with all the implications that brings in terms of people's attitudes.
And I agree that the coat thing is a small detail, but that it speaks volumes to the school's philosophy.
Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2011
- Messages
- 3,627
- Reaction score
- 3,769
Stay away from Harvard, they make their residents wear short white coats too.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2013
- Messages
- 55
- Reaction score
- 75
I hardly think they are trolling you... They are pointing out that one of the positives you listed for Cleveland Clinic is a costume. As an undergraduate, I wore a long white coat as part of my duties in the ER, with lovely embroidering and everything, unlike the short white coats medical students wore. Let me assure you that regardless of coat length, the physicians still treated me as an undergraduate and I was not somehow a "junior colleague" above the medical students. You are reading waaaaay too much into simple aesthetics.
The only difference is that some patients would mistake me for a doctor. Then I would have to politely point out that I was merely a student.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2013
- Messages
- 55
- Reaction score
- 75
Oh, guys. I don't know how many times I have to point out that the coat thing is a symbol and, in my original post, that main bullet is about how they hold their students to high expectations and the students might have more opportunities (research, clinically, etc.) as a result of this.
Yes but you are still saying it's a "symbol" of higher standards... To quote Dermviser: "This isn't AP English."
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2014
- Messages
- 90
- Reaction score
- 68
I don't think he means the coat is the actual symbol, but rather the school's "act" of challenging the norm.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2013
- Messages
- 55
- Reaction score
- 75
Sorry, I don't mean to propagate the argument. I was trying to point out why others were getting on your case.
To answer your original question, Hopkins will probably be the better choice for you based on the pluses and minuses you outlined, especially since 2/3 of the negatives you outlined will be inconsequential (financial aid and ochem).
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2009
- Messages
- 17,237
- Reaction score
- 13,032
Yes, bc all those other medical schools don't hold their students to high expectations and are not given more opportunities (research, clinically, etc.) as a result of wearing short white coats. 🙄Oh, guys. I don't know how many times I have to point out that the coat thing is a symbol and, in my original post, that main bullet is about how they hold their students to high expectations and the students might have more opportunities (research, clinically, etc.) as a result of this.
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2009
- Messages
- 1,603
- Reaction score
- 268
Oh, guys. I don't know how many times I have to point out that the coat thing is a symbol and, in my original post, that main bullet is about how they hold their students to high expectations and the students might have more opportunities (research, clinically, etc.) as a result of this.
i wore a short white coat during medical school...and i GUARANTEE i had more clinical opportunities working in the largest medical center in the world AND working at the county hospital in the most diverse city in the country....you dont get THAT at Cleveland Clinic.......my short white coat did me just fine and in no way limited my in my research or clinical opportunities....the white coat has nothing to do with it......ergo...you're wrong. and as far as high expectations, exactly as DermViser says. if you really feel you have to have a long white coat or keep seeing this as a "symbol of equality" then there are other issues to address
Last edited:
