2013-2014 Washington University in St. Louis Application Thread

[Amygdarya]

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Yeah, Cornell is switching from 2 to 1.5 preclinical years (and reducing PBL from 3 to 2 sessions a week, among other things). Which I like a lot, but...

 

[termitechips]

Yeah, Cornell is switching from 2 to 1.5 preclinical years (and reducing PBL from 3 to 2 sessions a week, among other things). Which I like a lot, but...

Interesting. I'm also considering between a NY school and WashU (Columbia).

 

[eleveneleven]

Hrm. Does anybody else have what looks like a partial financial aid report up on NetPartner? I have a "remaining need" section listed with no breakdown of loans or anything like that.

 

[Amygdarya]

Hrm. Does anybody else have what looks like a partial financial aid report up on NetPartner? I have a "remaining need" section listed with no breakdown of loans or anything like that.

I have exactly what you're describing on my NetPartner page as well. It wasn't there earlier today. It seems like they may be posting need-based awards soon.

 

[jusanothapremed]

Has merit aid been given out already?

From FinAid office: Yes and No. They have given out what sounded like a majority of the merit scholarships, but said more could be coming up through May 15.

 

[ksmi117]

There are usually people who get scholarships who withdraw, then the admissions people can offer that scholarship to another applicant.

In the past, the school informed people when they were not under consideration for merit money anymore. Not sure if that's the policy now with Dean Ratts taking over. But there's always a chance. I got a scholarship offer on May 13th when I was applying.

 

[MDub1]

There are usually people who get scholarships who withdraw, then the admissions people can offer that scholarship to another applicant.

In the past, the school informed people when they were not under consideration for merit money anymore. Not sure if that's the policy now with Dean Ratts taking over. But there's always a chance. I got a scholarship offer on May 13th when I was applying.

My offer came on May 13 as well, so it's still possible!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[NewYorker9]

There are usually people who get scholarships who withdraw, then the admissions people can offer that scholarship to another applicant.

In the past, the school informed people when they were not under consideration for merit money anymore. Not sure if that's the policy now with Dean Ratts taking over. But there's always a chance. I got a scholarship offer on May 13th when I was applying.

Mine came in the middle of May as well

 

[chronicidal]

Pretty much every other top tier school gives out merit to URMs. JHU, Harvard, Columbia, Yale etc. This is why URMs go there.

I have little evidence to support the following assertions, but I have the opposite impressions, that the only top tier schools that give significant merit aid are WashU, Penn, Duke, and smaller numbers at Hopkins, and that WashU already puts in a significant amount of money (merit aid, travel funding for second look) in order to recruit superstar URMs. One observation is that an highly disporportionate amount of the URM students in recent years went to Harvard College. Prove me wrong?

 

[Amygdarya]

Guys, you know which school should be an example of URM student recruitment? Weill Cornell. The school does not award any merit based scholarships, need based scholarships only (Dean of Admissions said that it was the most fair way to distribute money and that all accepted students inherently deserved merit scholarships), so URMs get as much money as ORMs of similar economic background. Yet, Cornell has one of the highest URM student recruitments. Why? Because URMs are supported by the administration here (which is probably the case at most top schools regardless of their diversity office size) and because there are very visible members of the admissions office, administration, faculty and current students who are URMs. Money is, of course, a great recruitment tool, but it's certainly not the only one.

 

[Asperphys]

Guys, you know which school should be an example of URM student recruitment? Weill Cornell. The school does not award any merit based scholarships, need based scholarships only (Dean of Admissions said that it was the most fair way to distribute money and that all accepted students inherently deserved merit scholarships), so URMs get as much money as ORMs of similar economic background. Yet, Cornell has one of the highest URM student recruitments. Why? Because URMs are supported by the administration here (which is probably the case at most top schools regardless of their diversity office size) and because there are very visible members of the admissions office, administration, faculty and current students who are URMs. Money is, of course, a great recruitment tool, but it's certainly not the only one.

Your points are valid (ie more URM staff in faculty etc are needed) but it's like comparing apples to oranges. Weill-Cornell is in New York City-- a highly desirable location for many. They naturally have a more diverse staff simply because NYC is very diverse. Plus their admissions requirements in terms of GPA and MCAT are more flexible so they consider a bigger pool of students. Their strategy of recruiting URMs with need based aid only works for them but I seriously doubt it will work for schools like WashU.

 

[Amygdarya]

Weill-Cornell is in New York City-- a highly desirable location for many. They naturally have a more diverse staff simply because NYC is very diverse. Plus their admissions requirements in terms of GPA and MCAT are more flexible so they consider a bigger pool of students. Their strategy of recruiting URMs with need based aid only works for them but I seriously doubt it will work for schools like WashU.

I agree that a comparison between Weill Cornell and WashU is not fair. I guess what I'm trying to say is, Weill Cornell is doing quite well diversity wise compared to other top schools in the Northeast which are also in highly desirable locations that have substantial diversity to begin with and which *do* have merit-based aid, even despite the fact that it doesn't. Eg., compare Cornell and Columbia: the difference is negligible - and Cornell is doing better diversity wise than NYU! (see the table that @chronicidal posted on p. 19 of this thread)

 

[Espadaleader]

I have little evidence to support the following assertions, but I have the opposite impressions, that the only top tier schools that give significant merit aid are WashU, Penn, Duke, and smaller numbers at Hopkins, and that WashU already puts in a significant amount of money (merit aid, travel funding for second look) in order to recruit superstar URMs. One observation is that an highly disporportionate amount of the URM students in recent years went to Harvard College. Prove me wrong?

Yes, I wrote a paragraph talking about how HMS is the standard bearer in URM recruitment.

 

[Asperphys]

I agree that a comparison between Weill Cornell and WashU is not fair. I guess what I'm trying to say is, Weill Cornell is doing quite well diversity wise compared to other top schools in the Northeast which are also in highly desirable locations that have substantial diversity to begin with and which *do* have merit-based aid, even despite the fact that it doesn't. Eg., compare Cornell and Columbia: the difference is negligible - and Cornell is doing better diversity wise than NYU! (see the table that @chronicidal posted on p. 19 of this thread)

I agree... NYU clearly has something else going on. Their relatively low %URM also surprised me.

Are you saying that Columbia and Cornell have the same strategies for recruiting URMs? Or that Cornell does as well as Columbia despite not having any merit scholarships?

Arguably, the top schools that prominently offer merit scholarships to URMs are in relatively less desirable locations (compared to NYC): Durham, Philly, Baltimore and Saint Louis. I still don't see how Cornell's strategy would help them. And everyone is trying to get into HMS despite it being in Boston bc it is Harvard. In short, Cornell is lucky to be able to recruit URMs easily with no merit scholarships.

 

[Espadaleader]

I have met no less than 5 people that have merit aid from WashU that are URMs. WashU pays for second look weekend. They do a lot to recruit students on the front end. All of those students with merit aid and every other student URM or not does not want to go to WashU though. I brought up these concerns to the URM students and they were impressed by the aid and the diversity offices after being skeptical at first. All of the URM students (and non-URM students) did not want to be in St. Louis in comparison to other options. "I am from California/Texas/Chicago/NY/Philly/Boston/DC/NC/Georgia etc. and I am accepted at UChicago/Pitt/Penn/Harvard/Yale/Stanford/Duke etc. Why would I move to St. Louis when I could go to a school closer to my home with the same level of prestige/aid/opportunities."

I think St. Louis is the issue because most people that get into WashU are into similar schools near home.

What you think? @Asperphys

 

[Espadaleader]

I agree... NYU clearly has something else going on. Their relatively low %URM also surprised me.

Are you saying that Columbia and Cornell have the same strategies for recruiting URMs? Or that Cornell does as well as Columbia despite not having any merit scholarships?

Arguably, the top schools that prominently offer merit scholarships to URMs are in relatively less desirable locations (compared to NYC): Durham, Philly, Baltimore and Saint Louis. I still don't see how Cornell's strategy would help them. And everyone is trying to get into HMS despite it being in Boston bc it is Harvard. In short, Cornell is lucky to be able to recruit URMs easily with no merit scholarships.

NYU is the absolute worst lol. I agree, I think Cornell is getting diverse classes based on location and their "tier". They are not as competitive as WashU/Stanford/HMS etc. Cornell doesn't have resources over these schools for sure.

 

[Amygdarya]

I agree... NYU clearly has something else going on. Their relatively low %URM also surprised me.

Are you saying that Columbia and Cornell have the same strategies for recruiting URMs? Or that Cornell does as well as Columbia despite not having any merit scholarships?

Arguably, the top schools that prominently offer merit scholarships to URMs are in relatively less desirable locations (compared to NYC): Durham, Philly, Baltimore and Saint Louis. I still don't see how Cornell's strategy would help them. And everyone is trying to get into HMS despite it being in Boston bc it is Harvard. In short, Cornell is lucky to be able to recruit URMs easily with no merit scholarships.

I don't know for sure, but, I admit, the reason for low URM % at NYU may be financial (which contradicts my point, haha). NYU does have merit aid (something it could use to recruit URMs if it felt like it), but it's quite expensive and, from what I understand, its need-based aid is not as good as Cornell's, so those who don't get merit scholarships are out of luck. Cornell gives quite generous need-based aid, so it attracts URMs from economically disadvantaged backgrounds, which is where most URMs come from (I don't mean this to be offensive; I come from a miserable socioeconomic background myself). So, yes, there is a financial incentive for URMs to go to Cornell, although money wise Cornell treats them just as well as anyone else. By the way, Cornell doesn't pay for second look travel expenses for URMs; instead, it refunds 50% of travel expenses for *everyone*. In other words, Cornell doesn't show URMs any preferential treatment money wise, yet there is a good number of URMs at Cornell.

No, I'm not saying Columbia and Cornell have the same recruiting strategies; I'm sorry for not being clear. I'm actually saying the opposite because, unlike Cornell, Columbia does have merit scholarships that can be used to attract URMs. Both are in the same city, which is the reason I brought up Columbia and NYU to this discussion (people have their preferences about Washington Heights vs. Upper East Side vs. Midtown, but in the big scheme of things the difference is negligible, it's still NYC). But there is a very minor difference in URM % between Columbia and Cornell, even despite one school giving merit aid and the other not (and, as far as I know, Columbia's need-based aid is quite good, too). So, my point is, while merit scholarships are quite useful to attract URMs, there are other successful strategies as well.

I agree with you about location and schools in less desirable locations being hard pressed to recruit URMs.
In the end, it's a combination of factors: money, location, and existence/visibility of URM students, faculty, administration at the school.

NYU is the absolute worst lol. I agree, I think Cornell is getting diverse classes based on location and their "tier". They are not as competitive as WashU/Stanford/HMS etc. Cornell doesn't have resources over these schools for sure.

Do tell which resources Cornell doesn't have over those other (highly esteemed, no question about it) school? NYP-Cornell? (level 1 trauma, unlike, say, NYP-Columbia) MSK? HSS? Several affiliated community hospitals throughput 4 boroughs of NY (+ Westchester for psychiatry), including Lincoln Memorial in the Bronx (a poster hospital for disadvantaged patient population + second highest trauma volume in NYC)? Tons of research opportunities and facilities, including Rockefeller University, the newly built Belfer research building and the NYC tech city that is being built by Cornell on Roosevelt island in NY? A medical school that Cornell has in Qatar? Hospitals that Cornell has in Tanzania and India etc.? Please do tell.
It seems like your statement is solely based on USWN rankings.

 

[Espadaleader]

@Amygdarya You're throwing fire out here lol. When I say resources I am talking strictly about financial aid.

 

[Amygdarya]

@Amygdarya You're throwing fire out here lol. When I say resources I am talking strictly about financial aid.

And what exactly do you know about financial aid resources at these schools that puts Cornell at such a great disadvantage compared to the other schools?
So Cornell doesn't give merit scholarships, but it does give generous need-based scholarships (+ a substantial part of loans is in school-administered *subsidized* loans, not only federal unsubsidized). I, for one, am very happy with my Cornell's fin aid package (it'll be cheaper for me than my nominally cheap IS school in a cheaper location even after my IS school gave me a scholarship!).

The fact that Cornell doesn't give any merit scholarships doesn't seem to affect its URM %, which is exactly my point here: it has one of the highest URM % of top 25 schools, according to the chronicidal's table on p. 19 of this thread, and it's just a little behind the very top URM % schools that do give merit scholarships. Once again, compare Columbia (21.5% URM, both need-based and merit scholarships) and Cornell (20% URM, need based scholarships only); they are in the same city and Columbia is even more prestigious. If anything, I'm surprised by U of Chicago, which is in a great - and diverse! - city, has a great reputation and quite aggressively recruits URMs by means of full tuition scholarships.
Yes, merit scholarships do help with recruitment, I'm not questioning this, but, as can be seen from these examples, they're not the only way to recruit URMs. Which was my original point in this discussion: look at what Cornell does to recruit URMs to see what works aside from merit scholarships.

 

[chronicidal]

Yes, I wrote a paragraph talking about how HMS is the standard bearer in URM recruitment.

Yes, notably without having to throw money at the problem. Example: FABRIC, a big performance event celebrating people of African descent, is a central feature of HMS second look.

I'm willing to bet that WashU has more money for its students (whether for finaid or student orgs or research money) than HMS does though.

 

[Espadaleader]

Yes, notably without having to throw money at the problem. Example: FABRIC, a big performance event celebrating people of African descent, is a central feature of HMS second look.

I'm willing to bet that WashU has more money for its students (whether for finaid or student orgs or research money) than HMS does though.

FABRIC was great. I was there. Trust me, HMS throws a lot of money and resources at URMs recruitment.

http://www.hms.harvard.edu/dcp/

This doesn't even include the other programs at Brigham and Mass Gen. They have been throwing money for a while.

I can't comment on WashU specifically, but I strongly doubt it.

 

[Espadaleader]

And what exactly do you know about financial aid resources at these schools that puts Cornell at such a great disadvantage compared to the other schools?
So Cornell doesn't give merit scholarships, but it does give generous need-based scholarships (+ a substantial part of loans is in school-administered *subsidized* loans, not only federal unsubsidized). I, for one, am very happy with my Cornell's fin aid package (it'll be cheaper for me than my nominally cheap IS school in a cheaper location even after my IS school gave me a scholarship!).

The fact that Cornell doesn't give any merit scholarships doesn't seem to affect its URM %, which is exactly my point here: it has one of the highest URM % of top 25 schools, according to the chronicidal's table on p. 19 of this thread, and it's just a little behind the very top URM % schools that do give merit scholarships. Once again, compare Columbia (21.5% URM, both need-based and merit scholarships) and Cornell (20% URM, need based scholarships only); they are in the same city and Columbia is even more prestigious. If anything, I'm surprised by U of Chicago, which is in a great - and diverse! - city, has a great reputation and quite aggressively recruits URMs by means of full tuition scholarships.
Yes, merit scholarships do help with recruitment, I'm not questioning this, but, as can be seen from these examples, they're not the only way to recruit URMs. Which was my original point in this discussion: look at what Cornell does to recruit URMs to see what works aside from merit scholarships.

You're very good. I agree with what you are saying. I would argue that being in NYC+Ivy League is enough to recruit URMs without merit scholarships at Cornell. Plus, they have a very active diversity office and pipeline program(s).

 

[Amygdarya]

I agree with what you are saying. I would argue that being in NYC+Ivy League is enough to recruit URMs without merit scholarships at Cornell. Plus, they have a very active diversity office and pipeline program(s).

And I agree with you 🙂
Plus, they have very visible URM faculty and administration members and very active URM students (some of the best second look events were organized by URM students/organizations).

Now, back to WashU: I actually think it would help if current URM students and faculty were more actively involved in recruitment. Think about it this way: if a highly desirable URM applicant is offered merit scholarships at 2 schools, wouldn't s/he rather attend the one with more visible URMs? Kind of a viscous cycle here.

 

[Asperphys]

I have met no less than 5 people that have merit aid from WashU that are URMs. WashU pays for second look weekend. They do a lot to recruit students on the front end. All of those students with merit aid and every other student URM or not does not want to go to WashU though. I brought up these concerns to the URM students and they were impressed by the aid and the diversity offices after being skeptical at first. All of the URM students (and non-URM students) did not want to be in St. Louis in comparison to other options. "I am from California/Texas/Chicago/NY/Philly/Boston/DC/NC/Georgia etc. and I am accepted at UChicago/Pitt/Penn/Harvard/Yale/Stanford/Duke etc. Why would I move to St. Louis when I could go to a school closer to my home with the same level of prestige/aid/opportunities."

I think St. Louis is the issue because most people that get into WashU are into similar schools near home.

What you think? @Asperphys

I agree. I've always chalked up the shortage of URMs at WashU to students not liking St Louis. I'm gratified to hear from an independent source that it is true because we really are trying everything we can to draw wonderful students here despite how unattractive the city is.

 

[Asperphys]

Now, back to WashU: I actually think it would help if current URM students and faculty were more actively involved in recruitment. Think about it this way: if a highly desirable URM applicant is offered merit scholarships at 2 schools, wouldn't s/he rather attend the one with more visible URMs? Kind of a viscous cycle here.

This is something I've stressed to Dr. Ross, our Dean of Diversity. I'm sure he'll pull all the stops to get this done.

 

[AbbeyRoade]

I'm not quite following all of this scholarship/diversity/etc. etc. talk here, y'all.....because all I know is that I'm on the waiting list and Washington University is my absolute dream #1 top school that I cannot stop thinking about day in and day out. You guys getting in to Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Columbia, Stanford, etc.? GO THERE and let me die complete after going to WashU med. Please and thank you. 🙂 😍

 

[termitechips]

I agree. I've always chalked up the shortage of URMs at WashU to students not liking St Louis. I'm gratified to hear from an independent source that it is true because we really are trying everything we can to draw wonderful students here despite how unattractive the city is.

I think this may be part of the explanation but not all of it. I keep coming back to comparing WashU to top-tier schools that would be equally geographically attractive to a national applicant pool (Vanderbilt, UMichigan, Duke, Pitt, Case), which I think all have more diversity (if measured by URM percentage).

I don't' think St. Louis is any less attractive than Nashville, Ann Arbor, Durham, Pittsburgh, or Cleveland. Personally, I would pick St. Louis over all of these places.

 

[Espadaleader]

I'm not quite following all of this scholarship/diversity/etc. etc. talk here, y'all.....because all I know is that I'm on the waiting list and Washington University is my absolute dream #1 top school that I cannot stop thinking about day in and day out. You guys getting in to Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Columbia, Stanford, etc.? GO THERE and let me die complete after going to WashU med. Please and thank you. 🙂 😍

Lmao!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Espadaleader]

I was at the SNMA AMEC conference and WashU has a booklet of all the URM faculty there. I met Dr. Will Ross. Def impressed.

 

[Asperphys]

I think this may be part of the explanation but not all of it. I keep coming back to comparing WashU to top-tier schools that would be equally geographically attractive to a national applicant pool (Vanderbilt, UMichigan, Duke, Pitt, Case), which I think all have more diversity (if measured by URM percentage).

I don't' think St. Louis is any less attractive than Nashville, Ann Arbor, Durham, Pittsburgh, or Cleveland. Personally, I would pick St. Louis over all of these places.

That's great. I guess WashU should not worry about these places drawing students away from St Louis. I rather suspect that they fill up their URM ranks with students WashU will not offer merit scholarships to though.

The discussion has been about URM students who are sought after by the likes of HMS, JHU and the ivies and ivy equivalents. I agree that location is not the entire explanation but it does contribute a lot. It is clear that the diversity office here has to step up recruitment efforts a bit to make it as showy as HMS-- ie greater URM presence during recruitment events, maybe a pipeline program, some cultural events and so on. Revisit weekend is coming up soon, so I hope those of you who are put off by WashU's URM% can do one of two things: 1.) articulate this issue to the adcom when you choose another school or 2.) come here and help us make WashU even better. Of the two I'd prefer you do the latter. The admin here is very responsive and acts on great ideas expeditiously. I hope this ends this discussion because we really are treading the same ground over and over again.

Also appreciate the love coming from wait listed students. Glad to see that a number of students see what I see in WashU and are willing to love it as well. Good luck to you guys! 🙂

 

[flippedtungsten]

Has anyone heard back about financial aid yet?

 

[DermViser]

That's great. I guess WashU should not worry about these places drawing students away from St Louis. I rather suspect that they fill up their URM ranks with students WashU will not offer merit scholarships to though.

The discussion has been about URM students who are sought after by the likes of HMS, JHU and the ivies and ivy equivalents. I agree that location is not the entire explanation but it does contribute a lot. It is clear that the diversity office here has to step up recruitment efforts a bit to make it as showy as HMS-- ie greater URM presence during recruitment events, maybe a pipeline program, some cultural events and so on. Revisit weekend is coming up soon, so I hope those of you who are put off by WashU's URM% can do one of two things: 1.) articulate this issue to the adcom when you choose another school or 2.) come here and help us make WashU even better. Of the two I'd prefer you do the latter. The admin here is very responsive and acts on great ideas expeditiously. I hope this ends this discussion because we really are treading the same ground over and over again.

Also appreciate the love coming from wait listed students. Glad to see that a number of students see what I see in WashU and are willing to love it as well. Good luck to you guys! 🙂

Would be nice if they worked on things that actually matter more to students: i.e. true P/F grading, shorter preclinical curriculum allowing more indepedent study for students to thrash the boards, maybe allowing protected time for research like Case does for students to complete a research project, etc.

 

[Trayshawn]

Would be nice if they worked on things that actually matter more to students: i.e. true P/F grading, shorter preclinical curriculum allowing more indepedent study for students to thrash the boards, maybe allowing protected time for research like Case does for students to complete a research project, etc.

Woah there buddy. I agree that all of those things you listed need work, but diversity matters a great deal.

 

[DermViser]

Woah there buddy. I agree that all of those things you listed need work, but diversity matters a great deal.

It matters to you (for the obvious reasons). I more prefer diversity in other areas: thought, economic background, etc. Ironic that the SCOTUS decision just came out in this regard on this topic, 6-2.

 

[Trayshawn]

It matters to you (for the obvious reasons). I more prefer diversity in other areas: thought, economic background, etc. Ironic that the SCOTUS decision just came out in this regard on this topic, 6-2.

I disagree. Diversity is not something that matters only to minority students as you suggest. I think it matters a great deal to most students in my experience. Diversity in race is just as necessary as diversity in thought, socioeconomic status, etc... I see no reason why one would prefer the others over race. In fact, race is often strongly tied to those other differences. No one wants to be in a classroom full of clones (of course, that was just a tongue-in-cheek exaggeration).

 

[Espadaleader]

It matters to you (for the obvious reasons). I more prefer diversity in other areas: thought, economic background, etc. Ironic that the SCOTUS decision just came out in this regard on this topic, 6-2.

Unless you plan to only work with Whites and Asians I think diversity matters.

 

[DermViser]

Unless you plan to only work with Whites and Asians I think diversity matters.

One does not need to be the same race as the race of the patient, to be a good doctor. URM doctors are not "better" doctors based on their skin color. If you believe that Whites and Asians don't "count" as diversity, then I'll let your statement speak for itself. WashU is not going to go out of it's way to recruit URMs who are subpar. They want to recruit those students who are on part with everyone else, who just HAPPEN to be URM.

 

[Amygdarya]

Would be nice if they worked on things that actually matter more to students: i.e. true P/F grading, shorter preclinical curriculum allowing more indepedent study for students to thrash the boards, maybe allowing protected time for research like Case does for students to complete a research project, etc.

To be fair, there are very few true p/f schools; many p/f schools rank internally. Not that they shouldn't follow Case's, Stanford's, Yale's - and??? - example, I'm just saying. Same with the other things, with importance of which I agree. I.e. only a minority of schools have condensed preclinical curricula.
As for protected research time, again, only a minority of schools like Penn, Yale, Pitt, Cornell and Case have it. However, most schools, including WashU, have an option of a research year. It can also be argued that for people with no interest in research whatsoever having a mandatory research time is a turnoff.
I mean, I do agree that these things are important and that WashU (or any other school) should consider implementing them; I'm just pointing out that WashU shouldn't be singled out for criticism.

It matters to you (for the obvious reasons). I more prefer diversity in other areas: thought, economic background, etc. Ironic that the SCOTUS decision just came out in this regard on this topic, 6-2.

Haha, here's the kicker: I've been actively participating in the diversity debate, but I'm not an URM myself. Yet for some very personal reasons, diversity in every possible sense, including racial, is very important to me. And I actually agree that diversity shouldn't be limited to race (as it often is at medical schools), although supporting URMs in medicine is important for a whole lot of other reasons.

 

[Espadaleader]

One does not need to be the same race as the race of the patient, to be a good doctor. URM doctors are not "better" doctors based on their skin color. If you believe that Whites and Asians don't "count" as diversity, then I'll let your statement speak for itself. WashU is not going to go out of it's way to recruit URMs who are subpar. They want to recruit those students who are on part with everyone else, who just HAPPEN to be URM.

You're not hearing what I am saying. Diversity means representation by all. Having a diverse class makes everyone better. If you are going to practice in Latino or Black communities it would help to have experience with these communities. URMs aren't "better doctors". They are a necessary piece of the puzzle though. Whites and Asians are necessary and do count as diversity. They are already widely represented in medicine already though.

 

[DermViser]

I disagree. Diversity is not something that matters only to minority students as you suggest. I think it matters a great deal to most students in my experience. Diversity in race is just as necessary as diversity in thought, socioeconomic status, etc... I see no reason why one would prefer the others over race. In fact, race is often strongly tied to those other differences. No one wants to be in a classroom full of clones (of course, that was just a tongue-in-cheek exaggeration).

One would much rather see affirmative action benefit the kid who was not born into affluent circumstances (and has the stats) than the kid who is born to two affluent parents, both doctors, and benefits from AA (i.e. those of Nigerian descent, etc.)

 

[lalax]

It matters to you (for the obvious reasons). I more prefer diversity in other areas: thought, economic background, etc. Ironic that the SCOTUS decision just came out in this regard on this topic, 6-2.

SCOTUS decision was on whether the lower court had the authority to decide whether Michigan could ban affirmative action or not - it was a question of judicial authority.

 

[Espadaleader]

One would much rather see affirmative action benefit the kid who was not born into affluent circumstances (and has the stats) than the kid who is born to two affluent parents, both doctors, and benefits from AA (i.e. those of Nigerian descent, etc.)

Listen, you're arguing over why affirmative action is wrong when roughly 10% of the medical school population is Black/Latino when 30% of the US is Black/Latino.

 

[Espadaleader]

SCOTUS decision was on whether the lower court had the authority to decide whether Michigan could ban affirmative action or not - it was a question of judicial authority.

How can a school with only 3% Black students approve an affirmative action ban? A public school at that.

 

[DermViser]

To be fair, there are very few true p/f schools; many p/f schools rank internally. Not that they shouldn't follow Case's, Stanford's, Yale's - and??? - example, I'm just saying. Same with the other things, with importance of which I agree. I.e. only a minority of schools have condensed preclinical curricula.
As for protected research time, again, only a minority of schools like Penn, Yale, Pitt, Cornell and Case have it. However, most schools, including WashU, have an option of a research year. It can also be argued that for people with no interest in research whatsoever having a mandatory research time is a turnoff.
I mean, I do agree that these things are important and that WashU (or any other school) should consider implementing them; I'm just pointing out that WashU shouldn't be singled out for criticism.

WashU is a top ten school that hasn't followed the trends of its peers in the top 10-20. That's the issue. If even Case Western Reserve, can do true P/F in the preclinical years, that tells you that other schools have caught on, and it's a lot more than just Case, Stanford, Yale, etc. Another example is U of Chicago. Same with a 1.5 year curriculum (which essentially just removes redundancies), and protected research time (you can add Duke to that list, and now Vanderbilt)

 

[DermViser]

How can a school with only 3% Black students approve an affirmative action ban? A public school at that.

This is regarding Michigan law.

 

[lalax]

How can a school with only 3% Black students approve an affirmative action ban? A public school at that.

It was a voters initiative, not a school initiative.

 

[DermViser]

SCOTUS decision was on whether the lower court had the authority to decide whether Michigan could ban affirmative action or not - it was a question of judicial authority.

I was commenting on the topic of AA in the news, not the intricacies of the actual judgment itself.

 

[DermViser]

You're not hearing what I am saying. Diversity means representation by all. Having a diverse class makes everyone better. If you are going to practice in Latino or Black communities it would help to have experience with these communities. URMs aren't "better doctors". They are a necessary piece of the puzzle though. Whites and Asians are necessary and do count as diversity. They are already widely represented in medicine already though.

Yes, and experience with those communities are in your patient population, which St. Louis definitely fits. And I'm glad that you believe that Whites and Asians are "necessary". How magnanimous of you. Asians apparently don't benefit from affirmative action policies, even though they have had no historical advantage not based on their stats: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/asians-too-smart-for-their-own-good.html

 

[lalax]

I was commenting on the topic of AA in the news, not the intricacies of the actual judgment itself.

You said "SCOTUS decision on this topic" (affirmative action).

“This case is not about how the debate about racial preferences should be resolved,” he wrote, in an opinion joined by Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. “It is about who may resolve it. There is no authority in the Constitution of the United States or in this court’s precedents for the judiciary to set aside Michigan laws that commit this policy determination to the voters.”

 

[DermViser]

Listen, you're arguing over why affirmative action is wrong when roughly 10% of the medical school population is Black/Latino when 30% of the US is Black/Latino.

There are many other factors as to why URMs don't pursue medical school (which I won't get into here as it goes off on a broader tangent).