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deleted1089003
From what I've heard from friends who graduated/peers who went, I would agree with the majority of what this user is writing.
2020-2021 Rutgers (Robert Wood Johnson)
- Thread starter TheDataKing
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Have you heard / do you think that NJMS students have ample research opportunities and a reasonable shot at placing into competitive specialties?
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deleted1089003
Got it. Do you have thoughts on comparisons between RWJMS and NJMS?
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deleted1089003
I didn't interview at NJMS, but I've heard more favorable things about NJMS > RWJ.
I'm not sure why RWJ is so disjointed in their teaching and curriculum... it's not like they have a super large class. The research opportunities are really poor, so unless you are going in with research, this will put you at a huge disadvantage. I know students who have gone to RWJ and they needed to/wanted to take research years to make them more competitive for medium-competitive specialties. At NJMS, that wasn't the case, from the peers I've known. I also tend to see more NJMS graduates at the competitive NYC hospital programs, but I have no hard evidence to back that up.
After the RWJ interview, I honestly said to myself if I don't get accepted at my other schools and RWJ is my only acceptance, I'll reapply.
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I was in that exact same situation. It probably doesn’t matter but is situation specific. Njms while not a research power house does have more of the residency programs so their chairman and program directors have more connections for some research. Letters, calls, connections. For optho and ENT they are much stronger since Rwj has no formal residency for even optho department-we have few if any students going into these fields and Njms optho match is impressive. Costs similar so it’s a none issue there. Rwj has a lot of people from Bergen county so likely some of same people. Njms wins on diversity they have a longer standing commitment and do it better in terms of DEI. RWJMS faculty lacks diversity and student body less diverse, not zero. For clinical year although UH Newark is crazy, you can do more as a student but they also rotate at the private hospitals in NJ. I would rate their clinical experience same or slightly higher based on talking to residents/friends coming from NJMs. Talk to someone about how their AOA and clinical honors grades (second in importance to your step 1/2 scores). With the 1.5 preclinical and more time in clinical setting this may be more important since the step 2, letters, research are more important. Our monmouth/Princeton/somerset are just hit or miss average in terms of clinical. Both schools decent driving to all the sites. These two are similar, if I had to do it again, but have picked NJMS. Our match list was crazy impressive but all those competitive matches aside from a few neurosurgery and urology (half of them) took 1-2 research years at Harvard, nyu, Miami, etc and they had crazy high scores. If you have a choice above the state schools and high potential for high step scores/ clinical shelves, consider going there despite a cost difference if you strongly suspect you will apply to a very competitive field (plastics, derm, optho, ENT, ortho, urology. For all else, probably equal and pick where you want to live and will do well. I had some more expensive private options with more formal academic departments and thought that the advising and mentorship may have been useful in retrospect. Clinical separation of campuses at Rwj does affect preclinical mentorship and opportunities and require a shuttle to get to hospital which takes time for all med students. At Njms, parking garage is next to hospital and clinical offices of all academic faculty. RWJMS has so many privademic and private attendings so less advising research mentorship.
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Do not reapply, honestly a solid research year could get you most competitive specialties if your grades were solid even with rwj. It’s a solid state school. Every school has negatives. Njms versus RWJMS for some students will pose unique negatives. They are similar. I honestly do not think Njms is that great either. There is now Cooper and Hackensack to consider as well as far as state schools and the vast majority are research weak compared to some local alternatives in nyc, philly and comparable state schools (u Maryland, Penn state). Also some of Rwj students matched super high anyway (great scores, Ivy League colleges) and luck with zero research in their specialty and little to no help from the faculty at Rwjms.
For those of you with multiple top acceptances and less than a half tuition scholarship or higher, then consider going to those top programs if and only if you strongly see yourself going into a very competitive specialty. Rwjms match list is still solid compared to Cooper and Hackensack due to being around longer (ESP Hackensack since it’s new). Njms vs Rwjms are equal and it’s up to you to pick the best choice. Do not choose based on interview day!!!!!! Those preclinical faculty at Rwjms you barely see during your time there and then after preclinical never!! Rwj is pretty bad at getting clinical faculty involved in interviews aside from a few docs and the clinical experience and faculty is what you select a school for-curriculum same most places and is largely self study, locale and clinical experience and cost should be your guide. Also pick based on concretes-cost, location. Your specialty choice and perceived impressions will change.
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Lately for average competitive specialties (psych , OBGYN, gen surgery) people at Rwjms did not need to take research years. Everyone matches fine at Rwjms for all but the top competitive specialties.
Step 1 used to be the end all be all in residency selection ( cut off and do not consider your application for residency if below 245 step 1 in some fields), so anxious med students would delay their exam 8 weeks or more (thereby delaying a year) since RWJMs had required step 1 prior to start of clinical years and MS3. They likely took an extra research year because they were not happy with their predicted step 1 score and anxiety associated with the test. It’s not like the MCAT where you could have taken it multiple times and have unlimited time- everyone got 6-8 weeks which should have been plenty.
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Rwjms curriculum pre clinical average step 1 was 235 during my time and a certain subset had crazy high scores (250+, 260+) which means the bulk of class did not since the mean was 235 in a class 160) similar to other state schools but not NYU, duke, Yale, Harvard). Lately the average score was slipping compared to other schools (out mean step 1 stayed same and other schools increased since it’s a step 1 arms race-they bought students q banks, offered cash for high scores, taught to the test). Rwjms preclinical did not teach to the step 1 which I think hurt average students and we bought our own AmBoss, firecracker, sketchy, unworldly pathoma in addition to tuition (1-2k extra). Most people do not use a Kaplan for step 1 some used doctors in training (cram resource, on you own $$$). Lots of hit or miss lectures (1/2-2/3) preclinical and clinical lectures mandatory and useless (2/3 or more). It’s largely self study. With step 1 pass fail would not really worry about preclinical curriculum (Rwjms will get the job done) ( step 2 is all self study from shelf books and world),
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Hi! Updates are through the portal, but if you look at the welcome page, it says "Updates can be submitted until January 15th."
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Also scrutinize the match lists in regards to the top nyc programs comment. I would disagree here-Rwjms and njms students get very comparable top residencies and actually compete with each other at interviews ( all Rutgers), for example all the neurosurgery people or all plastics people, they tell you “Rutgers”. If anything, I perceived that RWJMS people came more so from out of state undergrads and possibly chose Rwjms for it’s safer, yet more boring suburban locale so they more so tended to go to other locales aside from nyc by choice. This varies year by year-some years philly is popular some years nyc others Boston, Pittsburgh. NJMS people may pick it for its location closer to nyc for jobs of significant others, family. Possibly more northern nj students liked to do residency close by in nyc and may have selected not to move as far away, since residency allows for a preference in where you apply, hope to match. Aside from specific residency fields-optho, ENT, somewhat neurosurgery, dermatology, plastics, somewhat ortho and urology, med/peds (have a residency at njms)- match lists identical and opportunities equal. Most Rutgers residency programs merging into a Rutgers North and Rutgers South (aka central NJ) picture so if you plan to try to stay in state for residency and do a residency in one of those specific NJ regions, ie: really want to do residency at St. Barnabas, pick the respective Rutgers. Honestly, again only important for competitive specialties where home students have a slight edge, otherwise you will be competitive for all Rutgers residencies from either school. Lots of residents from NJMS at Rutgers RWJ ( RWJ students tend to only go to NJMS for competitive specialties but also go to some of the other NJMS rotation hospitals-Morristown, Barnabas. This is their preference-Rwjms like to go to nyc or out of state.
Thank you! Would the portal be used for letter of interest as well?
Just thought I’d add my own little anecdote but I’m an m1 here and while I certainly have my own gripes with the school and admin, a lack of quality research opportunities definitely isn’t one of them. Anyone with even the slightest inkling of initiative will have ample opportunities to engage in research really whenever they want to.
Also prob won’t be very active here but if anyone has any questions feel free to message me and next time I get bored and check back I’ll try to respond
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rintohsaka
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Could you speak to the general strengths of RWJ in your view and experience? The person above had a lot of negatives to discuss regarding the school and was just wondering what your thoughts were 🙂 thanks
Sure though I definitely wouldn’t take my word as gospel, just an n=1 and have only been here for 8 or so months.
Were you curious about any specific aspects? That might make this a bit easier. but I guess to start, like i mentioned before, research opportunities are really prevalent and flexible here. Even as a nontrad with basically 0 prior experience I had my pick of multiple projects/PIs across the handful of specialties im interested in. True p/f in preclinical years with only the slightest weight being given to preclinical when it comes to AOA nominations (not having to worry about getting a 100 on every exam is a huge weight taken off of your back). probably a product of p/f but everyone here is really collaborative and friendly. Insanely competitive match list for a state school. Admin are fairly receptive to feedback and willing to make accommodations without much pushback. Alum are willing to mentoring students and most faculty are extremely invested in your success. School is also really diverse, or at least diverse for a medical school and places a huge emphasis on exposing their students to varied cultures/backgrounds, which for a suburban dude whos family is from below the mason dixon line, has been really valuable.
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Are update letters/letters of intent really no longer being accepted?
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Are they still sending out IIs here?
When I called she told me to send a letter of intent before March since they look at the waitlist on April.
Good to know, thank you! I interviewed on Jan 12th so I didn't expect to have to send those out by Jan 15.
Do we just email it to admissions? So it sounds like they are receptive to Letter of Intents?
is this only for those who interviewed in 2020? i thought those who interviewed in 2021 don't even hear back until after march
I asked this before but no one answered 🙁 I’m not sure if it should be done through the portal or emailed. And I think they are because that’s how they also rank you on the list. At least that’s what Dr. Copeland told me
just a clarification needed - do you mean that Dr Copeland said that they rank their waiting list based on whether you send Letters of Intent?
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Letters of intent are usually sent after the interview, so I think they'll still accept them. It says the deadline for update letters was back in January, but it doesn't hurt to call the admissions office and ask
If I remember correctly she had said it helps when ranking.
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This is so not true. Please be honest. Research is lacking in many, many specialties and is worse even than NJMS. This is complicated by the privademic faculties in some specialties. For competitive specialties, research is de facto required. neurosurgery research outside of Dr. Danish is limited to newark; urology research is limited to CINJ/not as robust as many others/they let you help out the resident on research; dermatology research is paltry compared to any other school; orthopedics research non-existent; plastics research basically non-existent (maybe a few things with the newark people since the residents cover both hospitals; some private attendings); optho is all private (no department); ENT basically all private (little to no research, although there is a chair, no residents/residency). On the gen surgery side maybe there were one or two vascular guys (nassiri) who are productive and lenard lee, all others, not; I do not know about the primary care specialties, but if there is no residency program (plastics, ENT, optho) basically no research also many other departments are private/have little research. Compared to other schools (Penn State, U Maryland, even NJMS), RWJ student summer projects are punative and very little research to be had.
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everyone will have a different perspective, but I sincerely appreciate your honesty with regards to your experience
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Having recently graduated, some of these points are inaccurate. There is no true pass/fail. All preclinical "honors" are recorded and used for junior/senior AOA nomination and class rank quartile, although class rank is skewed towards clinical year grades. Mostly for junior AOA and class rank. Junior AOA (top 1/12 eligible from committee) is based only on preclinical, mainly. Senior AOA (top 1/4 eligible for selection from a committee). AOA does not exceed 1/6 class, total. Your class rank is divided into 4, with the school tipping some people up (aka bias). Class rank is based mainly on clinical year Honors, but also includes the number of pre-clinical "honors"->they have a cut-off and keep track for later ranking for AOA and your class rank, which is called your adjective on the MSPE (I believe Outstanding (25%), Excellent (50%), Very Good (75%), Good (100%)). This is depicted as, in summary, Robert Johnson was a Excellent medical student (it is capitalized) and I believe there is a histogram showing how many of each students in each quartile. If no histogram there, this quartile system is pretty standard, so residency PDs can assume very good and good are not top. I went all through pre-clinical thinking it was pass/fail and later found out it was used for things like AOA and to a lesser, but significant extent, class rank, also scholarships. Admin during my time were horrible and this was a true weakness of the school (recently there was an incident with the rising M4 class where someone screen shot a copy of the practice OSCE for Summative OSCE (last one), leaked on facebook, entire class was threatened with professionalism citations for one student's noticing by a glitch that the questions were available on AMP. If you have two professionalism citations, they have to disclose in everyone's dean letter for residency, so threatening the entire class until someone was ratted out is a big deal. Also they issue professionalism citations like candy to force professionalism, even for being late 5 minutes (rule by threats instead of example). I think very few faculty liked to teach/were invested in success (notable exceptions Dr.Corbet, pre-clinical curriculum guru, over-strapped with work, EMED Dr. Donovan, Dr. Rybinick, neurology, EMED Dr. Patty, Dr. Singer, Urology). All other teachers lackluster, considering they are all med school faculty and some of their salary is for teaching. RWJMS diversity pails in comparison to NJMS and Cooper and prior to DEI Dean, they had issues. Most deans/faculty are caucasian/asian. I had one DEI faculty over 4 years.
Not trying to dox myself so I guess lll leave it fairly vague. Unless I’ve suddenly developed an extremely vivid imagination, I’m definitely doing research in one of the fields that you stated is nonexistent and not with any of the faculty that you mentioned but like I said, just an n=1. I can only attest to my own experience and those of the handful of peers that I’m close with and have spoken to about their experience. Also not trying to convince anyone to come here, heck if it weren’t for some personal obligations in NJ I’d be going to school halfway across the country and not in NJ at either rwj or njms. Just offering an equally subjective experience which differed from yours
just to be even handed I’ll add what I view as the biggest drawback of going here. You’re basically paying for the privilege of buying boards and beyond, pathoma and sketchy as the in-house lecturers are, for the most part, horrendous. Nice and easy to talk to/more than willing to help you through challenging topics but long winded and horrible at lecturing
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I think the experience is average. I support state schools. Everyone's experience is different. I might have chosen this school again based on finances, but know that those great matched were from mainly affluent students taking poorly funded/self-funded research years (1-2 mainly) at outside institutions (NYU, harvard) since research was lacking at RWJMS. Student affairs, diversity, research main weaknesses, also specialty adivisng, hindered by parking, shuttle, and geographic separation of med school and hospital, also many hospitals with lots of driving and traffic. Also less teaching/investment compared to other state schools. NJMS is similar, but they have more residency programs (ENT. optho) and they do more during clinical years at UH (at RWJMS I was secretary, ran back and forth getting scrips signed, got residents water/soda from the cafeteria, carried dressing supplies (everywhere on surgery, imo), and talked to social work, etc. With SCM computer system wrote over 140 notes that were never read by any resident/attending, never got feedback (they were supposed to) and notes were typically written on pieces of paper or microsoft word document since RWJ notes do not count for the real chart and were not saved in computer system until m4 sub-I.
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Not saying there is 0 research. After residency interviews across the country, you learn that research is more abundant at some schools than others. Classmates had some research because they were motivated, but compared to other state schools and certainly top institutions, Hopkins, Duke, NYU, Vandy, it is lacking tremendously and RWJMS students as a whole are tremendously talented and could have done so much more (so many classmates from Ivy league/ super smart and creative. Some students from RWJMS even took research years at NJMS during scholar year (ENT, plastics, neurosurgery), although mainly at top 20 institutions. They added a few attendings in derm (they have one high volume female doc I believe), urology, neurosurgery, and one female plastics attending, but these are not high volume researchers comparatively; not sure of specifics with general surgery, there is some research, but less so than many other schools. You can actually google several years worth of MS1 summer projects, they were few real projects and even fewer papers (although through a cursory glance it may seem enough; other schools offer so much more!. Obgyn recently hired REI chair, which has been helpful for obgyn research (guy was high up in NYC). There is some IR research, not tremendous. PM+R (physical medicine rehab, JKF) actually is giving out 10k scholarships to RWJMS students to attract them. Comparing NJ schools for research : NJMS> RWJMS> Cooper> Hackensack/ Rowan DO (obviously department specific, but overall). NJMS has most residency programs and competitive residency programs in state. Home program students have an advantage in residency selection/ getting known to home department/matching there. RWJMS is fine for most things, research is for competitive specialties. With the scores/honors you can do a research year (s) at top instutions and match in any specialty/anywhere, although it is harder than having strong home departments that are academic and have residency programs that are also strong. For ENT/optho people, I would recommend NJMS. NJMS=RWJMS for most things, so pick the one you want, if that choice is there. If you have Ivy league/Top 20 choice and it is marginally more expensive (10-15k), for someone bound to a competitive specialty, I might suggest going to the top 20, despite a cost difference, since it likely saves you from a research year.
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competitive specialties: for those who do not know: derm, optho, ENT, urology, ortho, neurosurgery, rad onc, IR
newly competitive, less than above: gen surg categorical, obgyn, psych, rads (due to IR)
students do well at rwjms for: peds, IM, EMED, path, med/peds, PM R, anesthesia, family med, obgyn too (lately, home program matches) (top tier programs likely would require research/aways/connections, etc, or just luck and high step/clinical grades/rank)
newly competitive, less than above: gen surg categorical, obgyn, psych, rads (due to IR)
students do well at rwjms for: peds, IM, EMED, path, med/peds, PM R, anesthesia, family med, obgyn too (lately, home program matches) (top tier programs likely would require research/aways/connections, etc, or just luck and high step/clinical grades/rank)
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For preclinical, "Robert Johnson passed all his/her preclinical courses without difficulty" for the dean letter. they do not post the actual grade for each course, ie: BMS, Anatomy, Cards, Pulm, etc. No letter grades. They keep a record internally.
Fair. The part about the m1 summer research project is especially true and I think most people here realize that the school coordinated summer research program is a bit of a joke but w/ the transition to an abridged preclinical curriculum (1.5yr with only a few weeks between m1 and m2) it seems that a lot of people are foregoing the summer projects (which at least to me seemed like a way for people who didn’t previously have any plans for the summer to just pretend that they were being productive) & instead seeking out longitudinal projects on their own or applying to external programs.
now seeing as I’ve only ever been here, i have no idea if it’s easier to find projects at other schools, it very well may be and it’s possible I was able to stumble upon my situation by sheer luck but I can’t imagine it being much easier at other schools than just sending an email expressing interest in getting involved w/ their specialty
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See attached 2020 Match List from RWJMS and you will see that they matched students to the top programs in the country in the most competitive fields(Orthopaedic Surgery, Neurosurgery, Plastic Surgery, Ophthalmology, etc.). To the one post earlier, plenty were matched in NYC hospital programs.
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deleted1058452
I’m still just an applicant but as a Rutgers NB graduate I can definitely confirm that the facilities are ugly. I went on a tour of the med school as part of a class and it made me sad
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But do you know how to read the match list. 100% of plastics took research years, with some taking two years, funded poorly with money from wealthy doctor parents. Two people applying plastic surgery did not match and took GS prelim, including one that took a research year. Those applicants all had top step honors rank etc. urology had one not match of the 4 ( currently on a research year). To my knowledge, the one or two optho did not take a research year; the sole ENT match took a research year, dad is an ENT at RWJ, and only able to match into a 6-year research ENT residency outside preferred locale. Doctor dad helped fund his research year. Of the neurosurgery one took a research year and another took two. Neurosurgery research year also funded by doctor parent (see a trend...). MD PHD did not match neurosurgery or optho ( not sure which one, current prelim GS rwj. ) 75% urology . Ortho (7/8, 88% same abs national avg), only a female matched top program (nyu) and most were AOA, top scores, rank,etc. previous year 2 went unmatched, now 1-3 are doing ortho research years of the 7–10 applying . Njms had 10/12 or so taking research years in ortho. A year or two back RWJ had 2 that did not match optho scrambled into radiology for both (one had a dad who was a PD in rads...). Most likely plastic people take 2. Year before there was a guy who did not match derm after a research year he was AOA top of class (currently on research year 2 after a med internship). I would say at least 6 people didn’t match per year. Some of the people who delay graduation or withdraw do to low interview numbers inflate the true match rate. A year before 4 did not match GS categorical and 1-2 psych. Read between the lines...
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How nice the facilities are shouldn’t factor into your decision the small group rooms were modeled-that’s where the mandatory classes were held, anatomy was 2 months, they have a library next door... with the preclinical this is a non issue most hospitals nicer than UH, public hospitals... focus on match list, clinical education, Deans letter for residency class rank AOA DEI Research and clinical opportunities service opportunities
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Of course I know how to read a match list, stop being condescending, like you are this expert. All I was doing was pointing out that RWJMS has comparable matches to NJMS, plain and simple. First off, most of the highly competitive specialities require some research, regardless whether you are at a top 10 or middle tier. Yes, it's not necessary, but those applicants typically have and show a commitment to research. Your further listing of students that didn't match is moot, every school in the country has applicants that don't match....did you ever think for a minute that those applicants bombed their interviews?
I assume you may have been someone that did not match or a possible troll, since you post on many different school sites. Sorry if that's the case of not matching, but your points are invalid and to be honest, not sure what you are actually trying to say other than saying some students did not match and inferring that those who did at the uber competitive specialities only did so because of research?
Read between what lines?
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If someone took a research year or withdrew early from the match and delayed graduation, they may not be counted in the 94% match rate. General surgery preliminary year and no advanced position listed is likely a SOAP or partial match; same as medicine preliminary only.
If I took a glance at the match list, I would not know that one urology applicant did not match or that the plastics applicant without research did not match.
Good luck!
If I took a glance at the match list, I would not know that one urology applicant did not match or that the plastics applicant without research did not match.
Good luck!
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These people interviewed fine...I think it’s comparable to NJMS, mostly, but they prefer different locales and a few specialties have some differences in number of applicants. they we’re proposing a merger for NJMS and RWMS so that may happen in your time...
rintohsaka
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Did adcoms say we were going to hear back 3rd week of March?
Based on previous year’s thread, I think decisions are coming out this upcoming Monday for those who interviewed in Jan and feb! Both excited and nervous
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Has anyone gotten IIs from this school in the past month? If so can you post when you were complete and your stats? Thanks
rintohsaka
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during the interview day they said around march 16, so they might be behind this year?
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I received a II last week, there were only 2 dates left for interviews
Complete August, IS
GPA 3.85
MCAT 510
rintohsaka
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congrats! by any chance, do you remember what the dates were for those last 2 interview dates?
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i don't remember the march one (i think in the 20s), but the feb one is today
