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Discover Your Odds of Getting into Medical School
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TabbyTuxy said:
My acceptance definitely gave me the confidence to do this. Unfortunately, I probably wouldn't have otherwise, since I am very risk-averse. It did feel good to use what very, very little power I have as an applicant.
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Did you explicitly tell admissions why you chose to do this? I wonder if it will change anything if a bunch of people withdraw their applications.
 
futureneuro7 said:
Did you explicitly tell admissions why you chose to do this? I wonder if it will change anything if a bunch of people withdraw their applications.
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I did state my reasoning, politely.

I don't expect it to change much now. They didn't even listen to their own MS1 class, who was very upset by the situation, so I doubt they'd listen to applicants with no real leverage. However, I hope they do consider that people are listening, watching, and don't want to be affiliated with a school whose "DEI values" amount to this.
 
jjccmd said:
II complete 10/10. The recent events with Dr. Khoury have dampened my excitement about the school.
Can any current students chime in?
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Same. I feel so conflicted now. This was my dream school when I started applying and I was really excited about it. Now I feel uneasy.
 
fullofbeanz said:
Same. I feel so conflicted now. This was my dream school when I started applying and I was really excited about it. Now I feel uneasy.
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I'd suggesting continuing with the II, and then seeing all of the information available and talking to current student when it comes time to actually making the decision
 
For those of you withdrawing in order to make a statement, your statement would be much ‘louder’ if you were to wait until later in the cycle. If you withdraw after an Acceptance, it would be ‘loudest’ and also more impactful as Yield and therefore USNWR Ranking would be impacted.
 
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proudofmykids said:
For those of you withdrawing in order to make a statement, your statement would me much ‘louder’ if you were to wait until later in the cycle. If you were withdraw after an Acceptance, it would be ‘loudest’ and also more impactful as Yield and therefore USNWR Ranking would be impacted.
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For sure, and I thought of that! As I explained for my situation, I know I won't be making a real impact or any kind of statement, and it wasn't the intent (I wish I had that power). For me it's just as simple as no longer wanting to be considered for the program in light of learning more about their values. It can be right for me without being powerful to them.

Congrats to recipients of recent II's!
 
proudofmykids said:
For those of you withdrawing in order to make a statement, your statement would me much ‘louder’ if you were to wait until later in the cycle. If you were withdraw after an Acceptance, it would be ‘loudest’ and also more impactful as Yield and therefore USNWR Ranking would be impacted.
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hahah trueeee. I just don't really care for this school anymore, but thats a good idea
 
jjccmd said:
II complete 10/10. The recent events with Dr. Khoury have dampened my excitement about the school.
Can any current students chime in?
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As a current student I would recommend going to the interview to ask the students your questions because I know the students on the panel and they are amazing and very open and very truthful. There are just things we can’t share without context and that can’t be done on a post in SDN. Also recommend for everyone to track Dr. Khoury’s Twitter page and StudentsofKP Twitter page to be in the know
 
Somehow I got the KPSOM MD videos for the interview through my secondary email which I've never used at any point during the admissions process. Kinda spooked on how they found it.
 
DoctorMelanin said:
Totally hear you. Agreed that we do not know all of the facts. We can, however, move accordingly with what we do know — a Black woman physician taught students on race and racism in medicine as she was asked to and later that night, per her tweets, had her license revoked.

There are countless cases of non-Black/non-POC physicians & educators spewing racist, anti-Black, anti-Indigenous ideologies in the classroom and in their clinical practice with only a simple slap on the wrist. No license revoked. The dean "assuring" you that this case is irrespective of race or racism is not only unsubstantiated as implicit bias seeps through every facet of life but also genuinely hard to believe?

Your rhetoric is eerily similar to that of a lot of folks who want all of the facts before condemning a cop for killing Black people. Surely, if Dr. Khoury had done something harmful in the classroom, the reprimand could have been a lot less dire than a license revocation. They reinstated her license but that is merely publicity. What is not addressed is the aftermath and gravity of her working for/with an institution that was so quick to reduce her to nothing.
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I agree with this sentiment and withdrew my application for the same reasons. I've provided some additional context below if that will help others.

So, I’ve been following this situation closely since Dr. Khoury first tweeted about it (). I watched @/StudentsofKP express their solidarity with Dr. Khoury and demand answers on Twitter a week later (). I reread the multiple diversity statements on KP’s website, wondering how an incident in such stark contract to their written values could have possibly happened. I watched as the Chair of the Department of Clinical Sciences informed her that her appointment would not be renewed because of “performance issues” (). I watched Dr. Khoury follow up the previous post with a letter from that same Chairperson, in which he discusses a promotion with her and thanks her for the “great work [she does] for the School” not even three months before she was suspended (). I reread the anti-racism action plan on KP’s website, which was updated two weeks before the incident (https://medschool.kp.org/content/da...d-diversity/KPSOM Anti-Racism Action Plan.pdf). I then read the DEI action plan that they released less than a week ago, on January 4th (https://medschool.kp.org/content/da...ing KPSOMs Culture An Initial Action Plan.pdf). I saw another few tweets from @/StudentsofKP demanding action ().


Throughout this entire time, I watched Kaiser Permanente SOM make no statement about the situation. At this point, I emailed them and withdrew my application from consideration for their program.

I completely understand not wanting to put your neck out there and risk losing out on an opportunity to attend this school. By no means am I asking anybody to do what I did if they do not feel safe in this decision. What I will ask you to consider is this: If an institution makes such an incredible effort in outlining and publicly sharing their goals as far as DEI is concerned, how is it not fair to question why they will not also publicly speak on this situation, in which they appear to have unfairly targeted a Black woman in medicine? If you, an institution, are going to make a 17-point plan related to DEI and include a diversity and inclusiveness statement in your literal missions and values page, then you should be able to stand on it.

To my knowledge, they have still not said a single word to the public about this situation due to "legal reasons." We’ve seen this pattern too many times. A Black person is unjustly shoved out of a space, and then the organization doesn’t speak of it in hopes that people will simply forget about it and move on. And that’s usually what happens. It’s the same formula over and over and over. It’s January, and we’re over halfway through application season. Waiting for “all of the facts” before making a decision is a luxury we, Black applicants, simply do not have at this point, especially when one, much more powerful side appears to be intentionally withholding said facts for this exact reason. Besides, it’s much easier to sell yourself to students on DEI when you don’t have to explain why you fired a Black woman for discussing racism in medicine (allegedly). This is why I feel it’s crucial to, at the very least, inquire as to why Dr. Khoury was let go. Importantly, despite the Chair mentioning in December that her “firing” was unrelated to her discussion of racism in medicine, an email she screen-capped and posted appears to say otherwise (https://twitter.com/ayshakhoury/status/1347246392117325824?s=21).

Kaiser Permanente SOM’s silence, even in the face of repeated demands and criticism from their own students, is resounding, and I simply can’t trust that an institution like that will be good for or care about me or people who look like I do, let alone our training or, perhaps more importantly, the care of a diverse array of patients.
 
swanncell said:
I agree with this sentiment and withdrew my application for the same reasons. I've provided some additional context below if that will help others.

So, I’ve been following this situation closely since Dr. Khoury first tweeted about it (). I watched @/StudentsofKP express their solidarity with Dr. Khoury and demand answers on Twitter a week later (). I reread the multiple diversity statements on KP’s website, wondering how an incident in such stark contract to their written values could have possibly happened. I watched as the Chair of the Department of Clinical Sciences informed her that her appointment would not be renewed because of “performance issues” (). I watched Dr. Khoury follow up the previous post with a letter from that same Chairperson, in which he discusses a promotion with her and thanks her for the “great work [she does] for the School” not even three months before she was suspended (). I reread the anti-racism action plan on KP’s website, which was updated two weeks before the incident (https://medschool.kp.org/content/dam/internet/kp/som/homepage/about/equity-inclusion-and-diversity/KPSOM Anti-Racism Action Plan.pdf). I then read the DEI action plan that they released less than a week ago, on January 4th (https://medschool.kp.org/content/dam/internet/kp/som/homepage/about/equity-inclusion-and-diversity/Strengthening KPSOMs Culture An Initial Action Plan.pdf). I saw another few tweets from @/StudentsofKP demanding action ().


Throughout this entire time, I watched Kaiser Permanente SOM make no statement about the situation. At this point, I emailed them and withdrew my application from consideration for their program.

I completely understand not wanting to put your neck out there and risk losing out on an opportunity to attend this school. By no means am I asking anybody to do what I did if they do not feel safe in this decision. What I will ask you to consider is this: If an institution makes such an incredible effort in outlining and publicly sharing their goals as far as DEI is concerned, how is it not fair to question why they will not also publicly speak on this situation, in which they appear to have unfairly targeted a Black woman in medicine? If you, an institution, are going to make a 17-point plan related to DEI and include a diversity and inclusiveness statement in your literal missions and values page, then you should be able to stand on it.

To my knowledge, they have still not said a single word to the public about this situation due to "legal reasons." We’ve seen this pattern too many times. A Black person is unjustly shoved out of a space, and then the organization doesn’t speak of it in hopes that people will simply forget about it and move on. And that’s usually what happens. It’s the same formula over and over and over. It’s January, and we’re over halfway through application season. Waiting for “all of the facts” before making a decision is a luxury we, Black applicants, simply do not have at this point, especially when one, much more powerful side appears to be intentionally withholding said facts for this exact reason. Besides, it’s much easier to sell yourself to students on DEI when you don’t have to explain why you fired a Black woman for discussing racism in medicine (allegedly). This is why I feel it’s crucial to, at the very least, inquire as to why Dr. Khoury was let go. Importantly, despite the Chair mentioning in December that her “firing” was unrelated to her discussion of racism in medicine, an email she screen-capped and posted appears to say otherwise (https://twitter.com/ayshakhoury/status/1347246392117325824?s=21).

Kaiser Permanente SOM’s silence, even in the face of repeated demands and criticism from their own students, is resounding, and I simply can’t trust that an institution like that will be good for or care about me or people who look like I do, let alone our training or, perhaps more importantly, the care of a diverse array of patients.
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the screen capture of the letter from KPSOM specifically says it is not related to content presented on racism.

Looking at it from a different lens...

Yes, everyone keeps shouting for answers.
But imagine if there was blatant unprofessional behavior that could be exposed? It could ruin the rest of her career. They already implied that it caused her license to be revoked. The ‘shouters’ should be careful what they wish for.

People need to tread and assume carefully from which they make their own decisions.
 
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proudofmykids said:
the screen capture of the letter from KPSOM specifically says it is not related to content presented on racism.

Looking at it from a different lens...

Yes, everyone keeps shouting for answers.
But imagine if there was blatant unprofessional behavior that could be exposed? It could ruin the rest of her career. They already implied that it caused her license to be revoked. The ‘shouters’ should be careful what they wish for.

People need to tread and assume carefully from which they make their own decisions.
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I may have missed this, but where did they imply her license was revoked? You mean medical license, correct? 😳

Also, as a follow-up to your point, no matter how much Kaiser may want to, a company typically can't release details about an employee's work performance. So it may not be that they are hiding something or refusing to respond, they likely can't.
 
Fawna said:
I may have missed this, but where did they imply her license was revoked? You mean medical license, correct? 😳

Also, as a follow-up to your point, no matter how much Kaiser may want to, a company typically can't release details about an employee's work performance. So it may not be that they are hiding something or refusing to respond, they likely can't.
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It was clarified a few pages back in the thread I think but a current student noted her medical license was NOT revoked. She was temporarily removed from clinic (and then returned) and the classroom (still not permitted back) but at no point was her medical license revoked. She was and is still legally authorized to care for patients.
 
cornelder said:
Don't think it's just protest. Many people feel the mission and/or values no longer match with their goals and thus have decided not to pursue it any further.
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Well yeah, I got that much hahah. What about the mission or values is no longer in line with their goals?
 
viralhiker said:
Well yeah, I got that much hahah. What about the mission or values is no longer in line with their goals?
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This is an excerpt from the values section of their site. Their treatment of Dr. Khoury as well as their decision to ignore student requests related to the fiasco seem to directly contradict the school’s own values. The values the school has shown lately do not align with the values of applicants. That simple.
71F43CA2-C5AD-4644-8A11-20193B6103A2.jpeg
 
idkdoctormaybe said:
This is an excerpt from the values section of their site. Their treatment of Dr. Khoury as well as their decision to ignore student requests related to the fiasco seem to directly contradict the school’s own values. The values the school has shown lately do not align with the values of applicants. That simple.View attachment 327384
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Ahh.. Still a little unclear on how Dr. Khoury was treated, but I am sure I can find it via google. Curious as to how many people holding offers of admission will end up declining.
 
r2med said:
I think people won't easily decline a 400k offer
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Where are people getting 400k from? From my understanding during the interview, it seemed like students get full-tuition scholarships but not the full cost of attendance. I could be wrong though.

Full tuition is still a lot, don't get me wrong - just curious about 400k
 
med123help! said:
Where are people getting 400k from? From my understanding during the interview, it seemed like students get full-tuition scholarships but not the full cost of attendance. I could be wrong though.

Full tuition is still a lot, don't get me wrong - just curious about 400k
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i believe the first class got full COA, and then i've heard reports of others getting that this year too. regardless with interest even if its just tuition and health coverage im sure after residency that bill would be somewhere near 400k if you pay nothing during residency. lol
 
HDF4K said:
It was clarified a few pages back in the thread I think but a current student noted her medical license was NOT revoked. She was temporarily removed from clinic (and then returned) and the classroom (still not permitted back) but at no point was her medical license revoked. She was and is still legally authorized to care for patients.
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Thank you for clarifying.
I was going to delete my post, but your reply is very informative.
 
med123help! said:
Where are people getting 400k from? From my understanding during the interview, it seemed like students get full-tuition scholarships but not the full cost of attendance. I could be wrong though.

Full tuition is still a lot, don't get me wrong - just curious about 400k
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I was referring to full COA. Regardless, it is a big amount to easily reject.
 
idkdoctormaybe said:
Update: Dr. Schuster (founding dean and CEO) sent an apology to Dr. Khoury on Jan. 10

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I’m burned out on seeing this “we’ll schedule a meeting soon” language. If this were a priority to administration, they would have already met to discuss the issues pertaining to her “performance”.

Considering the sensitive nature of the topic, the push from the student body, and frankly the public optics of their actions...it’s clear they’re not really standing by their values. Just another performative social justice marketing scheme. I’m sure their logic is that no applicant would turn down the free tuition and they are hoping this blows over by they time they stop offering it. This is very disappointing and despite any defense anyone on here has of KPSOM, this absolutely could have been handled better - especially from a school with such bold claims of DEI in their core values.
 
dindjarin87 said:
I’m burned out on seeing this “we’ll schedule a meeting soon” language. If this were a priority to administration, they would have already met to discuss the issues pertaining to her “performance”.

Considering the sensitive nature of the topic, the push from the student body, and frankly the public optics of their actions...it’s clear they’re not really standing by their values. Just another performative social justice marketing scheme. I’m sure their logic is that no applicant would turn down the free tuition and they are hoping this blows over by they time they stop offering it. This is very disappointing and despite any defense anyone on here has of KPSOM, this absolutely could have been handled better - especially from a school with such bold claims of DEI in their core values.
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Well wasn't the brunt of the anger centered on the thought that the school has suspended her BECAUSE of her lecture? I absolutely agree that from the HR process side of this they handled it so poorly, to the detriment of Dr. Khoury and that is a wrong that they need to right. But, the letter seems to allude that something else happened aside from her just giving the lecture that day. I’m curious if there were other faculty present because I thought KP has 2 faculty per small group from what a current student I know told me. She also tweeted about “having her suspicions” of someone who reported her since all the students in her class explicitly said they didn’t report her and were not uncomfortable with the conversation they had. So I’m curious if there was a conflict with another faculty in that class? regardless, she seems to be not super forthright in saying “we just had this talk about racism and then I was suspended”.

All in all, frankly, this seems like a massive HR mess but all of the students and other faculty have their hearts in the right place and that’s truly what makes the school, not some dean of faculty (who sent Dr Khoury the initial email) or the person who heads up HR. To each their own.
 
Dr. Khoury has views that fall well outside the bounds of what is considered reasonable in mainstream discourse, and she has publicly said things that are toxic and unbecoming of a physician. In one of her Tweets prior to her firing, she complains that “white BSNs” are “slow to follow [her] orders” because she’s black. In another Tweet, she says she “feels anxiety and fear” whenever she interacts with a “white HCP [healthcare professional.]”

Being black doesn’t give you a pass to deliver divisive political rants during what’s supposed to be an educational session. You can have a data-driven, balanced discussion on the topic of racism in healthcare without turning into a far-left version of Alex Jones. It’s one thing to be concerned about racism in healthcare, but it’s another to express resentment toward individuals based on their being white.

And to all the courageous pre-meds withdrawing your applications because you’re outraged over a story you’ve only heard one side of... Kaiser genuinely couldn’t care less. The Dean won’t lose a second of sleep over your virtue-signaling. There are enough desperate California med school applicants to fill their seats 50 times over.
 
Osminog said:
Dr. Khoury has views that fall well outside the bounds of what is considered reasonable in mainstream discourse, and she has publicly said things that are toxic and unbecoming of a physician. In one of her Tweets prior to her firing, she complains that “white BSNs” are “slow to follow [her] orders” because she’s black. In another Tweet, she says she “feels anxiety and fear” whenever she interacts with a “white HCP [healthcare professional.]”

Being black doesn’t give you a pass to deliver divisive political rants during what’s supposed to be an educational session. You can have a data-driven, balanced discussion on the topic of racism in healthcare without turning into a far-left version of Alex Jones. It’s one thing to be concerned about racism in healthcare, but it’s another to express resentment toward individuals based on their being white.

And to all the courageous pre-meds withdrawing your applications because you’re outraged over a story you’ve only heard one side of... Kaiser genuinely couldn’t care less. The Dean won’t lose a second of sleep over your virtue-signaling. There are enough desperate California med school applicants to fill their seats 50 times over.
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Dr Khoury is fully within her right to describe her experiences in healthcare as a Black woman physician, with regards to her tweets. If those are her experiences they should be respected, especially the medical distrust. That’s the fault of medicine, not her.

You have no idea what Dr. Khoury said in the class and per her students letter, they enjoyed everything she said and they learned from it, so you seem to be taking things a bit of a stretch here. Your anger about folks confronting racism in the healthcare can be taken elsewhere. The conversations should be confronted and it looks like KP actively has that as part of their curriculum.

Calling her a far left Alex Jones is insulting considering the folks he has harmed and the discrimination and misinformation he has levied. You can weigh in on the situation without impugning Dr. Khoury’s character.
 
Osminog said:
Dr. Khoury has views that fall well outside the bounds of what is considered reasonable in mainstream discourse, and she has publicly said things that are toxic and unbecoming of a physician. In one of her Tweets prior to her firing, she complains that “white BSNs” are “slow to follow [her] orders” because she’s black. In another Tweet, she says she “feels anxiety and fear” whenever she interacts with a “white HCP [healthcare professional.]”

Being black doesn’t give you a pass to deliver divisive political rants during what’s supposed to be an educational session. You can have a data-driven, balanced discussion on the topic of racism in healthcare without turning into a far-left version of Alex Jones. It’s one thing to be concerned about racism in healthcare, but it’s another to express resentment toward individuals based on their being white.

And to all the courageous pre-meds withdrawing your applications because you’re outraged over a story you’ve only heard one side of... Kaiser genuinely couldn’t care less. The Dean won’t lose a second of sleep over your virtue-signaling. There are enough desperate California med school applicants to fill their seats 50 times over.
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PREACH!!!!!!!
 
jboi2343 said:
PREACH!!!!!!!
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not yall tryna dismiss the experiences of a black woman in medicine, miss me with that ****. you have no idea what its like to be actually be viewed as a "threat" in society and to have people question your every move. i myself have found so many similar instances working in healthcare and with everything going on in the country rn i legit feel scared to go in public at times. read the room.
 
Osminog said:
Dr. Khoury has views that fall well outside the bounds of what is considered reasonable in mainstream discourse, and she has publicly said things that are toxic and unbecoming of a physician. In one of her Tweets prior to her firing, she complains that “white BSNs” are “slow to follow [her] orders” because she’s black. In another Tweet, she says she “feels anxiety and fear” whenever she interacts with a “white HCP [healthcare professional.]”

Being black doesn’t give you a pass to deliver divisive political rants during what’s supposed to be an educational session. You can have a data-driven, balanced discussion on the topic of racism in healthcare without turning into a far-left version of Alex Jones. It’s one thing to be concerned about racism in healthcare, but it’s another to express resentment toward individuals based on their being white.

And to all the courageous pre-meds withdrawing your applications because you’re outraged over a story you’ve only heard one side of... Kaiser genuinely couldn’t care less. The Dean won’t lose a second of sleep over your virtue-signaling. There are enough desperate California med school applicants to fill their seats 50 times over.
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Any differing views said by a black/POC physician and suddenly she is "unbecoming of a physician" and she can get suspended. Do you really think a white physician espousing conservative political views in 1 educational session would get suspended over that? They ASKED her to talk about racism in medicine, including her personal experiences, and then penalized her for being honest.

It is a sad state of affairs when you side with a medical school that would rather forgo applicants than address genuine concerns - especially because DEI is so strongly featured in their mission and curriculum. According to you, all it takes is the place to be an attractive destination for medical school and I guess they can do whatever they want, including use their non-white faculty as diversity pawns for positive publicity.
 
Osminog said:
Dr. Khoury has views that fall well outside the bounds of what is considered reasonable in mainstream discourse, and she has publicly said things that are toxic and unbecoming of a physician. In one of her Tweets prior to her firing, she complains that “white BSNs” are “slow to follow [her] orders” because she’s black. In another Tweet, she says she “feels anxiety and fear” whenever she interacts with a “white HCP [healthcare professional.]”

Being black doesn’t give you a pass to deliver divisive political rants during what’s supposed to be an educational session. You can have a data-driven, balanced discussion on the topic of racism in healthcare without turning into a far-left version of Alex Jones. It’s one thing to be concerned about racism in healthcare, but it’s another to express resentment toward individuals based on their being white.

And to all the courageous pre-meds withdrawing your applications because you’re outraged over a story you’ve only heard one side of... Kaiser genuinely couldn’t care less. The Dean won’t lose a second of sleep over your virtue-signaling. There are enough desperate California med school applicants to fill their seats 50 times over.
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Ok let's go ahead and unpack why this comment reeks of privilege and entitlement. First, let me make something very clear: Kaiser should never have asked Dr. Khoury to share her experiences. They put the burden of anti-racism work on a single black faculty member when there are groups like Advancing Health Equity that host workshops and do speaking engagements for exactly these types of situations. Instead, KPSOM had a black female doctor share her experiences with racial trauma in a space where she clearly was not welcome. That's on them.

Now, you mention that Dr. Khoury "complains" that white BSNs hesitate to follow her orders because she's black. If you'd taken the time to examine this statement from an inquisitive viewpoint rather than an accusatory one, you would've seen that black doctors being doubted by their white counterparts is not at all new and is fairly widespread. It's another facet of medical racism and I would hope that Dr. Khoury brought it up in her talk because its important to acknowledge the many ways in which racism works. Dr. Michele Harper wrote about her experience of being doubted by a white second-year resident when she (Dr. Harper) refused to examine a man against his will. Additionally, Dr. Tamika Cross tried to help a passenger who was having a health emergency during a Delta flight. The flight attendant didn't believe her and began questioning her credentials. However, when a white male doctor showed up, he was allowed to help without having to provide any "proof." The doubt that Dr. Khoury was talking about stemmed from white BSNs doubting her knowledge because she doesn't "look" the part. It's racism, plain and simple, and it should be addressed.

Your next point talks about the anxiety and fear Dr. Khoury has when interacting with white healthcare professionals. Rather than rehashing past unethical treatment from white physicians such as the case of Henrietta Lacks, the Tuskegee experiments, etc. I'll share with you the story of Dr. Susan Moore, who died of COVID after her white care team failed to address her concerns. She made it clear before she died that she wouldn't have been treated that way if she were white, and she was right. I firmly believe that had Dr. Moore been white, she'd be alive today. But let's get some hard data rather than anecdotal evidence. A 2016 study found that half of white medical students and residents believed myths that black people have thicker skin or less sensitive nerve endings than their white counterparts. The AAMC has opened a discussion on disparities like this as well. Knowing all of that information, what black person wouldn't have some level of anxiety/fear when faced with a white provider?

Dr. Khoury's view most definitely do not "fall outside of the mainstream" nor are they too far left. They are based in fact as well as her personal experiences. Kaiser didn't want an open discussion of medical racism and bias. They wanted a discussion that wouldn't sacrifice the comfort of white students and faculty. Discussions about racism and bias are going to be uncomfortable, but your way of thinking asks black people to place the comfort of their white counterparts above their own. Let me repeat that: you want a black female doctor to place the comfort of her white peers above her own when relaying the details of her racial trauma.

Rather than trying to center yourself in discussions like this, question yourself and identify your own biases. It's much easier to demonize Dr. Khoury than acknowledge your faults. When people like you lick their wounds and stroke their egos rather than acknowledging how they subconsciously or consciously contribute to racism in medicine, black and brown patients suffer.
 
Osminog said:
Dr. Khoury has views that fall well outside the bounds of what is considered reasonable in mainstream discourse, and she has publicly said things that are toxic and unbecoming of a physician. In one of her Tweets prior to her firing, she complains that “white BSNs” are “slow to follow [her] orders” because she’s black. In another Tweet, she says she “feels anxiety and fear” whenever she interacts with a “white HCP [healthcare professional.]”

Being black doesn’t give you a pass to deliver divisive political rants during what’s supposed to be an educational session. You can have a data-driven, balanced discussion on the topic of racism in healthcare without turning into a far-left version of Alex Jones. It’s one thing to be concerned about racism in healthcare, but it’s another to express resentment toward individuals based on their being white.

And to all the courageous pre-meds withdrawing your applications because you’re outraged over a story you’ve only heard one side of... Kaiser genuinely couldn’t care less. The Dean won’t lose a second of sleep over your virtue-signaling. There are enough desperate California med school applicants to fill their seats 50 times over.
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this the kinda dude to complain about letting more URM into med school with lower stats when this is exactly why we need more color in schools
 
idkdoctormaybe said:
Ok let's go ahead and unpack why this comment reeks of privilege and entitlement. First, let me make something very clear: Kaiser should never have asked Dr. Khoury to share her experiences. They put the burden of anti-racism work on a single black faculty member when there are groups like Advancing Health Equity that host workshops and do speaking engagements for exactly these types of situations. Instead, KPSOM had a black female doctor share her experiences with racial trauma in a space where she clearly was not welcome. That's on them.

Now, you mention that Dr. Khoury "complains" that white BSNs hesitate to follow her orders because she's black. If you'd taken the time to examine this statement from an inquisitive viewpoint rather than an accusatory one, you would've seen that black doctors being doubted by their white counterparts is not at all new and is fairly widespread. It's another facet of medical racism and I would hope that Dr. Khoury brought it up in her talk because its important to acknowledge the many ways in which racism works. Dr. Michele Harper wrote about her experience of being doubted by a white second-year resident when she (Dr. Harper) refused to examine a man against his will. Additionally, Dr. Tamika Cross tried to help a passenger who was having a health emergency during a Delta flight. The flight attendant didn't believe her and began questioning her credentials. However, when a white male doctor showed up, he was allowed to help without having to provide any "proof." The doubt that Dr. Khoury was talking about stemmed from white BSNs doubting her knowledge because she doesn't "look" the part. It's racism, plain and simple, and it should be addressed.

Your next point talks about the anxiety and fear Dr. Khoury has when interacting with white healthcare professionals. Rather than rehashing past unethical treatment from white physicians such as the case of Henrietta Lacks, the Tuskegee experiments, etc. I'll share with you the story of Dr. Susan Moore, who died of COVID after her white care team failed to address her concerns. She made it clear before she died that she wouldn't have been treated that way if she were white, and she was right. I firmly believe that had Dr. Moore been white, she'd be alive today. But let's get some hard data rather than anecdotal evidence. A 2016 study found that half of white medical students and residents believed myths that black people have thicker skin or less sensitive nerve endings than their white counterparts. The AAMC has opened a discussion on disparities like this as well. Knowing all of that information, what black person wouldn't have some level of anxiety/fear when faced with a white provider?

Dr. Khoury's view most definitely do not "fall outside of the mainstream" nor are they too far left. They are based in fact as well as her personal experiences. Kaiser didn't want an open discussion of medical racism and bias. They wanted a discussion that wouldn't sacrifice the comfort of white students and faculty. Discussions about racism and bias are going to be uncomfortable, but your way of thinking asks black people to place the comfort of their white counterparts above their own. Let me repeat that: you want a black female doctor to place the comfort of her white peers above her own when relaying the details of her racial trauma.

Rather than trying to center yourself in discussions like this, question yourself and identify your own biases. It's much easier to demonize Dr. Khoury than acknowledge your faults. When people like you lick their wounds and stroke their egos rather than acknowledging how they subconsciously or consciously contribute to racism in medicine, black and brown patients suffer.
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I just wanted to say that this was a beautiful rebuttal, and just like Dr. Khoury, I hope you know that it shouldn't have to fall on you or any single individual to educate others, but I really appreciate that you do, because statistics like these are so important for others to be aware about and I really do hope that medical schools who claim to promote diversity and inclusion are as blunt and upfront about the reality of racism and how engrained it is into medical history.

I also want to second your statement about how discussions like this are in fact uncomfortable, and they should be. Any type of discussion where someone must address their bias, whether that is conscious or subconscious, should be uncomfortable because it takes active effort to try to change these thought processes.

But again, just in general, thank you for this beautifully crafted response.
 
Osminog said:
Dr. Khoury has views that fall well outside the bounds of what is considered reasonable in mainstream discourse, and she has publicly said things that are toxic and unbecoming of a physician. In one of her Tweets prior to her firing, she complains that “white BSNs” are “slow to follow [her] orders” because she’s black. In another Tweet, she says she “feels anxiety and fear” whenever she interacts with a “white HCP [healthcare professional.]”

Being black doesn’t give you a pass to deliver divisive political rants during what’s supposed to be an educational session. You can have a data-driven, balanced discussion on the topic of racism in healthcare without turning into a far-left version of Alex Jones. It’s one thing to be concerned about racism in healthcare, but it’s another to express resentment toward individuals based on their being white.

And to all the courageous pre-meds withdrawing your applications because you’re outraged over a story you’ve only heard one side of... Kaiser genuinely couldn’t care less. The Dean won’t lose a second of sleep over your virtue-signaling. There are enough desperate California med school applicants to fill their seats 50 times over.
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It’s saddening that people like this will one day be your colleagues...
 
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