2013-2014 Washington University in St. Louis Application Thread

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I'm fortunate enough to be in at washu and a few other places and the big reason im on the fence is that washu is not p/f during all of preclinical and most other top schools are.
I'm also debating WashU because of this. I absolutely loved the school and the student environment during interview day, but I am concerned about the ranking and the H/HP/P/F and how stressful it'll make things in second year.

I interviewed 2 weeks ago and Dean Chung told my interview group that the administration is working on pushing that change and second year is very likely to change to P/F starting with class of 2018, so I wouldn't let that be a deciding factor.
 
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I'm a 3rd year at Wash U and just want to say that the reason they don't change the 2nd year here to P/F isn't because of inertia or resistance to change, but because students don't want to. Every year (or at least most years) they poll the class on a lot of different issues, including the grading of second year. And every year the majority of the class who have done the graded 2nd year (including ours), votes to keep it that way. The majority of us don't find it that much more stressful (especially since 1/2 the class gets an honors in almost every class anyway) and it helps keep you motivated to study hard during the year, which allows Wash U to do very well on Step 1 (most recent class got a 241 average), despite having less time than most to study after classes end.

Simply put, Wash U has grades because the current system is working just fine and their philosophy is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." To be honest, the people most stressed by the 2nd year grades at Wash U are the 1st years; those that have been through it know that it's just fine.

I don't know about you, but I think this just kind of confirms the highly competitive nature of med students that end up attending WashU. This isn't surprising as WashU tends to be very stats-whorish thriving on recruiting students who have high GPAs and MCAT scores - thus you have a much higher chance of recruiting more "anal-retentive" / "neurotic" students. Compare this to say Stanford, Yale, Harvard where P/F grading exists in the first 2 years.

There are many in your class that are aiming for prized specialties such as Radiology, Opthalmalogy, or Dermatology, so naturally those who are competitive will want every advantage possible to outrank you, with Honors in the preclinical years easier to achieve than in the clinical years, when it gets much more subjective. It's not surprising that those students would want to build up an advantage early on, rather than have everyone being on the same footing until entering MS-3. I'm sure many of those students would wish 1st year was graded also, if that was a possibility, just to get a leg up on their classmates in rank. Compare that to PDs, where clinical grades matter the most to them and preclinical grades are one of the lowest, if not negligible value.

If you need grades to motivate you to study during the preclinical years, rather than say preparing for USMLE Step 1 (which tends to test differently and emphasize different things that professors do), then I think you'll be in trouble in the clinical years and residency, when you no longer have those motivations. Medicine is a life-long learning profession, where there isn't always a "prize" of a good grade.
 
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There is some truth to what you say. There's only been one time that the administration has polled any class on preclinical grading in at least 7 years. The rest were student-initiated surveys. Here are the results of that poll that were shared with the entire school. 50.0% of the 3rd years opposed a change, 50.6% of the 4th years opposed a change, 56.1% of the research students (MSTs and extra research years) opposed a change. Barely a majority, I reckon.

How would you describe your opinion of a change in second-year grading to Pass/Fail?

Realize that a lot of those 3rd and 4th years will have the mentality of "If I was miserable and had to deal with it, so do you", esp. if their ranking dropped tremendously. Notice the trend in the "Strongly opposed" and "Strongly agree" columns as you go up in years. So their recorded opinion may not be with the most benevolent of intentions. Also "Neutral" is more like "I don't care" - seems like a wastebasket category to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong but most grad school courses are graded, so it's not surprising that MSTP students doing a PhD, would want grading. Are their graduate courses P/F or graded?
 
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Realize that a lot of those 3rd and 4th years will have the mentality of "If I was miserable and had to deal with it, so do you", esp. if their ranking dropped tremendously. Notice the trend in the "Strongly opposed" and "Strongly agree" columns as you go up in years. So their recorded opinion may not be with the most benevolent of intentions. Also "Neutral" is more like "I don't care" - seems like a wastebasket category to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong but most grad school courses are graded, so it's not surprising that MSTP students doing a PhD, would want grading. Are their graduate courses P/F or graded?

Did you go to WashU, dermviser? I'm wondering if you have firsthand experience with WashU students.
 
I don't know about you, but I think this just kind of confirms the highly competitive nature of med students that end up attending WashU. This isn't surprising as WashU tends to be very stats-whorish thriving on recruiting students who have high GPAs and MCAT scores - thus you have a much higher chance of recruiting more "anal-retentive" / "neurotic" students. Compare this to say Stanford, Yale, Harvard where P/F grading exists in the first 2 years.

There are many in your class that are aiming for prized specialties such as Radiology, Opthalmalogy, or Dermatology, so naturally those who are competitive will want every advantage possible to outrank you, with Honors in the preclinical years easier to achieve than in the clinical years, when it gets much more subjective. It's not surprising that those students would want to build up an advantage early on, rather than have everyone being on the same footing until entering MS-3. I'm sure many of those students would wish 1st year was graded also, if that was a possibility, just to get a leg up on their classmates in rank. Compare that to PDs, where clinical grades matter the most to them and preclinical grades are one of the lowest, if not negligible value.

If you need grades to motivate you to study during the preclinical years, rather than say preparing for USMLE Step 1 (which tends to test differently and emphasize different things that professors do), then I think you'll be in trouble in the clinical years and residency, when you no longer have those motivations. Medicine is a life-long learning profession, where there isn't always a "prize" of a good grade.
While there are many high achieving students at Wash U, I have never felt the least amount of competition. We have a very collegial class, and I've never witnessed another student trying to get an advantage at the expense of others.

As for me, I don't care either way if they change to P/F. Having gone through it, I realize it really didn't make any of us more competitive and helped motivate me to study well and do well on Step 1. But we'd all be fine if it switched as well. I'm just telling you this because I almost didn't pick Wash U because I was worried about the 2nd year grading as well, and I realize how silly that was now.
 
While there are many high achieving students at Wash U, I have never felt the least amount of competition. We have a very collegial class, and I've never witnessed another student trying to get an advantage at the expense of others.

As for me, I don't care either way if they change to P/F. Having gone through it, I realize it really didn't make any of us more competitive and helped motivate me to study well and do well on Step 1. But we'd all be fine if it switched as well. I'm just telling you this because I almost didn't pick Wash U because I was worried about the 2nd year grading as well, and I realize how silly that was now.

I said competitive, not "gunner" (I specifically avoided that word on purpose due to the bad connotation, and more than half the time, people define the word wrong).
 
I think we have more or less exhausted the 2nd year grades debate. Some people like it and for legitimate reasons some applicants are concerned about it. I think it also stands that it seems most students currently attending WashU are not concerned with it and are more focused on the big picture. Most PDs for residency will not care about preclinical grades either. WashU turns out great physicians with this system. Other schools with P/F turn out great physicians too.

When you're choosing a school you should look at the entire picture. Grading is a piece of this. However, I would encourage you to also consider factors that are (potentially more) important. The clinical education is phenomenal here. You are exposed to patients right away - they had me in the clinic at the end of the first full week of classes. Research opportunities are both unbelievable and accessible. Administration is incredibly supportive of students. The surrounding health profession schools give you the chance to informally meet other members of the health care team. And the environment at the medical school is conducive to learning and growing with your classmates.

For some people P/F may be a deal breaker. For others it may be a strong consideration. I hope everyone can see the whole package that WashU has to offer. There is so much more to this institution than your grades during second year!
 
I think we have more or less exhausted the 2nd year grades debate. Some people like it and for legitimate reasons some applicants are concerned about it. I think it also stands that it seems most students currently attending WashU are not concerned with it and are more focused on the big picture. Most PDs for residency will not care about preclinical grades either. WashU turns out great physicians with this system. Other schools with P/F turn out great physicians too.

When you're choosing a school you should look at the entire picture. Grading is a piece of this. However, I would encourage you to also consider factors that are (potentially more) important. The clinical education is phenomenal here. You are exposed to patients right away - they had me in the clinic at the end of the first full week of classes. Research opportunities are both unbelievable and accessible. Administration is incredibly supportive of students. The surrounding health profession schools give you the chance to informally meet other members of the health care team. And the environment at the medical school is conducive to learning and growing with your classmates.

For some people P/F may be a deal breaker. For others it may be a strong consideration. I hope everyone can see the whole package that WashU has to offer. There is so much more to this institution than your grades during second year!
This x 1000. Wash U has been an absolutely phenomenal school for me. I'm positive there is no better place for me and my training anywhere in the country, and I hope all of you consider very seriously coming here!
 
I think we have more or less exhausted the 2nd year grades debate. Some people like it and for legitimate reasons some applicants are concerned about it. I think it also stands that it seems most students currently attending WashU are not concerned with it and are more focused on the big picture. Most PDs for residency will not care about preclinical grades either. WashU turns out great physicians with this system. Other schools with P/F turn out great physicians too.

When you're choosing a school you should look at the entire picture. Grading is a piece of this. However, I would encourage you to also consider factors that are (potentially more) important. The clinical education is phenomenal here. You are exposed to patients right away - they had me in the clinic at the end of the first full week of classes. Research opportunities are both unbelievable and accessible. Administration is incredibly supportive of students. The surrounding health profession schools give you the chance to informally meet other members of the health care team. And the environment at the medical school is conducive to learning and growing with your classmates.

For some people P/F may be a deal breaker. For others it may be a strong consideration. I hope everyone can see the whole package that WashU has to offer. There is so much more to this institution than your grades during second year!

I think the grading matters only bc the MS-2 year contributes to 30% of your class ranking which goes to residencies (which does affect whether certain specialties are open to you). The actual grades don't matter. It's not like if you got an Honors in the Cardiology block, you'd make an excellent cardiologist. I just think 30% is a lot to contribute to class rank for a year of multiple choice questions, when PDs don't care about preclinical grades.
 
I think the grading matters only bc the MS-2 year contributes to 30% of your class ranking which goes to residencies (which does affect whether certain specialties are open to you). The actual grades don't matter. It's not like if you got an Honors in the Cardiology block, you'd make an excellent cardiologist. I just think 30% is a lot to contribute to class rank for a year of multiple choice questions, when PDs don't care about preclinical grades.
Very true. But conversely it's nice to have 30% of your grade for ranking made up of objective tests and not the mostly subjective 3rd year grades
 
Very true. But conversely it's nice to have 30% of your grade for ranking made up of objective tests and not the mostly subjective 3rd year grades

Not if those professor-made test questions (which tend to be nit-picky rote memorization questions) are different from the USMLE (which tend to be application type questions many of which cross disciplines). You then essentially have to hardcore study for 2 types of exams: one for the grade and one for the boards, rather than just 1. With your logic, then MS-1 should be graded as well since it would contribute 10% of class rank.
 
Not if those professor-made test questions (which tend to be nit-picky rote memorization questions) are different from the USMLE (which tend to be application type questions many of which cross disciplines). You then essentially have to hardcore study for 2 types of exams: one for the grade and one for the boards, rather than just 1. With your logic, then MS-1 should be graded as well since it would contribute 10% of class rank.
All good points, but here at Wash U the tests are reasonable as evidenced by the fact that usually > 50% of the class gets honors. And really I found that most of them tested things that were applicable to the class, Step 1, and your clinical career (well at least 3rd year I know).
 
DermViser:
Can you give us some insight to your situation? If you have an interview scheduled then maybe you can talk with students during your day. If you already interviewed, maybe send an email or come to Second Look so you can see what the culture is like for yourself? You seem very concerned about the environment especially as it relates to grades and it would be nice if we could help you understand our perspective as current students
 
DermViser:
Can you give us some insight to your situation? If you have an interview scheduled then maybe you can talk with students during your day. If you already interviewed, maybe send an email or come to Second Look so you can see what the culture is like for yourself? You seem very concerned about the environment especially as it relates to grades and it would be nice if we could help you understand our perspective as current students
NewYorker9, you just confirmed what I remember best from my WashU interview: that WashU students are supernice and go out of their way to help you 🙂
 
All good points, but here at Wash U the tests are reasonable as evidenced by the fact that usually > 50% of the class gets honors. And really I found that most of them tested things that were applicable to the class, Step 1, and your clinical career (well at least 3rd year I know).
I don't think it's logical to suggest that a test is reasonable (i.e. has external validity) based on the fact that students do well on it. WashU does not use any NBME preclinical shelfs and I think most questions in most classes would not pass muster for quality or content if you tried to pass it off as a nationally standardized question. I would say they're okay on average. Coursemasters still look down upon the idea of 'teaching to the boards'. I would agree that most tested things are applicable to the class/boards/wards, but the difference between 'most' and the 90% honors mark is the crux of the debate.
 
DermViser:
Can you give us some insight to your situation? If you have an interview scheduled then maybe you can talk with students during your day. If you already interviewed, maybe send an email or come to Second Look so you can see what the culture is like for yourself? You seem very concerned about the environment especially as it relates to grades and it would be nice if we could help you understand our perspective as current students
I'm pretty sure DermViser is not a prospective student, nor even a medical student. S/he is just injecting a dose of reality into the kool-aid here (i.e. outside perspective).
 
I don't think it's logical to suggest that a test is reasonable (i.e. has external validity) based on the fact that students do well on it. WashU does not use any NBME preclinical shelfs and I think most questions in most classes would not pass muster for quality or content if you tried to pass it off as a nationally standardized question. I would say they're okay on average. Coursemasters still look down upon the idea of 'teaching to the boards'. I would agree that most tested things are applicable to the class/boards/wards, but the difference between 'most' and the 90% honors mark is the crux of the debate.
Sorry I don't think I said it well. I was responding to Dermviser saying the tests were nitpicky and required a lot of useless memorization that would only distract you from studying stuff relevant for step 1. I was saying that the tests are not that terribly difficult and nitpicky, so you don't have to waste tons of time memorizing useless stuff. I don't claim that the tests themselves have external validity and apply to nationwide standardized exams
 
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Has anyone heard back from the Olin Fellowship Program?
 
I got an email from them last Friday saying that I am one of the finalists and that I have until this Friday to accept their invitation.
 
I'm pretty sure DermViser is not a prospective student, nor even a medical student. S/he is just injecting a dose of reality into the kool-aid here (i.e. outside perspective).

Thank you chronicidal. Yes, I am neither a prospective student nor a medical student. I am a dermatology resident, so I'm a little impervious to the Koolaid served by medical school admissions faculty. Prospective medical students who have choices at great schools when it comes to medical school, should be aware of what really matters in their education since your goal is to match in the specialty of choice, not to have a fantastic looking transcript. I think SDN is a great resource for students to get the low down on things they won't hear during their medical school bloviating tours.

PhDs hired by a university are hired by medical schools to perform research and bring in grants, with the goal of reaching tenure. PERIOD. Teaching classes of medical students is a quid pro quo --> Medical schools give these PhDs infrastructure, resources, and funds to do their research and for that, PhDs agree to take part in teaching medical school coursework in the curriculum. There are no real incentives in place for PhDs to WANT to teach basic sciences well or to take the effort to write real board style questions so their students are well prepared.
  • Under a graded system [which is then calculated into your rank and getting AOA], a student is always torn between learning the information well Vs. learning the information the professor emphasizes in class, or in their powerpoint to get Honors.
  • Under a strict Pass/Fail system, you are free to study things well, for the sake of learning, without having the fear of whether or not by doing so, you won't "Pass " the course, just bc you didn't emphasize the things the PhD professor feels you should know.
During your 2nd year when you have to worry about being prepared for boards AND getting good grades at the same time, it's a lot of unnecessary stress, bc Residency Program Directors don't give a **** about your actual preclinical grades on your transcript.
 
Thank you chronicidal. Yes, I am neither a prospective student nor a medical student. I am a dermatology resident, so I'm a little impervious to the Koolaid served by medical school admissions faculty. Prospective medical students who have choices at great schools when it comes to medical school, should be aware of what really matters in their education since your goal is to match in the specialty of choice, not to have a fantastic looking transcript. I think SDN is a great resource for students to get the low down on things they won't hear during their medical school bloviating tours.
PhDs hired by a university are hired by medical schools to perform research and bring in grants, with the goal of reaching tenure. PERIOD. Teaching classes of medical students is a quid pro quo --> Medical schools give these PhDs infrastructure, resources, and funds to do their research and for that, PhDs agree to take part in teaching medical school coursework in the curriculum. There are no real incentives in place for PhDs to WANT to teach basic sciences well or to take the effort to write real board style questions.


Under a graded system [which is then calculated into your rank and getting AOA], a student is always torn between learning the information well Vs. learning the information the professor emphasizes in class or in their powerpoint to get Honors. Under a strict Pass/Fail system, you are free to study things well, for the sake of learning, without having the fear of whether or not by doing so, you won't "Pass " the course, just bc you didn't emphasize the things the PhD professor feels you should know. During your 2nd year when you have to worry about being prepared for boards and getting good grades at the same time. It's a lot of stress, unnecessarily, esp. since Residency Program Directors don't give a **** about preclinical grades.
If residencies don't care about preclinical grades, it seems to me non-P/F M2 is only stressful if you let it be. If you just realize the grades don't matter it makes no difference if it's P/F or graded.
 
If residencies don't care about preclinical grades, it seems to me non-P/F M2 is only stressful if you let it be. If you just realize the grades don't matter it makes no difference if it's P/F or graded.

I said they don't care about "actual preclinical grades on your transcript." They DO care about your class rank, which if your preclinical courses are graded - then they are naturally going to contribute to your class rank.

When your school sends your Dean's Letters, program directors aren't going to be able to know what your class rank would have been if your preclinicals were P/F. They're not going to say "Oh, well he's ranked lower in the class, but his preclinicals were graded, so we should give him a break and interview him".
 
I said they don't care about "actual preclinical grades on your transcript." They DO care about your class rank, which if your preclinical courses are graded - then they are naturally going to contribute to your class rank.

When your school sends your Dean's Letters, program directors aren't going to be able to know what your class rank would have been if your preclinicals were P/F. They're not going to say "Oh, well he's ranked lower in the class, but his preclinicals were graded, so we should give him a break and interview him".
Fair point.
 

I have no desire to send a copy of my state medical license when it's not required esp. to an anonymous message board, unlike say a state medical licensing board, for the "benefits" of having animated images in my avatar. I'm giving my advice and perspective, just like everyone else on SDN. Now, if that means you believe me to be full of it, that's fine too. You wouldn't be the first premed who thinks they know it all.
 
I have no desire to send a copy of my state medical license when it's not required esp. to an anonymous message board, unlike say a state medical licensing board, for the "benefits" of having animated images in my avatar. I'm giving my advice and perspective, just like everyone else on SDN. Now, if that means you believe me to be full of it, that's fine too. You wouldn't be the first premed who thinks they know it all.

I have no idea why you think she meant any harm by telling you about how to upgrade. Chill out.
 
I have no idea why you think she meant any harm by telling you about how to upgrade. Chill out.

How does me being "verified" by sending my work email and medical license change my advice/perspective just for the benefits of getting: Verified Doctor Badge added to account, Boolean searching, Largest PM box (capacity 2000), Largest signature, Largest avatar (175 x 175), Animated images in avatar and signature, Biggest upload capacity, Ability to delete own posts, Ability to delete own threads, No Forum Sponsor ads?

Part of anonymity, allows one to give unadulterated perspective and advice to those who would largely benefit from it, without fear of retribution. I've already said that the participating clinical institutions (Barnes and STL Children's) and research opportunities available at WUSTL are top notch. Once you're on the other side and get to wade through residency applications, you get to see what is important to PDs and faculty, and what is not or is glanced over, before the offer of a residency interview is made.

Very rarely do premeds have that insight on entering medical school. More often then not, they regurgitate their med school's talking points standing on a soapbox. That's not helpful to many students (esp. the non-affluent) who are putting in hard earned money (or their parent's hard earned money).

However, esp. if may be interested in the competitive specialties, your class rank in your medical school and board scores matter. This can be mitigated somewhat by having research publications and getting LORs from big names in the field but those are in addition to, not in place of class rank and board score metrics. I don't necessarily agree with the system as it is, but that's real life.
 
How does me being "verified" by sending my work email and medical license change my advice/perspective at all for the benefits of getting:

•Verified Doctor Badge added to account
•Boolean searching
•Largest PM box (capacity 2000)
•Largest signature
•Largest avatar (175 x 175)
•Animated images in avatar and signature
•Biggest upload capacity
•Ability to delete own posts
•Ability to delete own threads
•No Forum Sponsor ads


Part of anonymity, allows one to give unadulterated perspective and advice to those who would largely benefit from it, without fear of retribution. I've already said that the participating clinical institutions (Barnes and STL Children's) and research opportunities available at WUSTL are top notch. Once you're on the other side and get to wade through residency applications, you get to see what is important to PDs and faculty, and what is not or is glanced over, before the offer of a residency interview is made.

Very rarely do premeds have that insight on entering medical school. More often then not, they regurgitate their med school's talking points standing on a soapbox. That's not helpful to many students (esp. the non-affluent) who are putting in hard earned money (or their parent's hard earned money).

However, esp. if may be interested in the competitive specialties, your class rank in your medical school and board scores matter. This can be mitigated somewhat by having research publications and getting LORs from big names in the field but those are in addition to, not in place of class rank and board score metrics. I don't necessarily agree with the system as it is, but that's real life.

Again, all I can say is chill out. At no point did she insinuate that you get verified to "beef up your credibility." She just suggested you might want those little perks because you've earned them as an MD (within this online community). No one is attacking you based on your opinions or points (I think your perspective is awesome and needed). Just don't take everything as an attack.
 
Again, all I can say is chill out. At no point did she insinuate that you get verified to "beef up your credibility." She just suggested you might want those little perks because you've earned them as an MD (within this online community). No one is attacking you based on your opinions or points (I think your perspective is awesome and needed). Just don't take everything as an attack.

I apologize, then for assuming that to be the case. I highly recommend every premed print out this list and get the answers to these questions.
Selecting a Medical School: Thirty-Five Questions I Wish I Had Asked https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/programs/

The University of Michigan Medical School, for example, fully answers them here:
http://medicine.umich.edu/medschool...md-admissions/faqs/aamc-michigan’s-35-answers
 
yay accepted too! interviewed in early November. Did any of you guys pay the deposit yet? I paid the deposit, but the page still has the link for me to pay the deposit again. Is this normal?
 
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