2013-2014 Washington University in St. Louis Application Thread

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+5.

A little bummed because this is yet another waitlist, but it's OK because I couldn't handle WashU. My tour guide was talking about the 9 to 5 pm lectures M-F second year, the emphasis on the study carrels, and the fact that some medical students work more hours on rotations than what's legally allowed for residents. Yikes. Too weak for that.
 
+6 not surprised though, my interviewer straight up told me to not be surprised if I got wait-listed O_O
 
pyrrion89 said:
+6 not surprised though, my interviewer straight up told me to not be surprised if I got wait-listed O_O
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When did you interview? When I interviewed in mid February an MS4 told us that during lunch, but that's surprising to come from an interviewer.
 
+7. :C The sad thing is that after my interview I felt good about my chances because I thought it had gone well.
 
ohmylanta said:
yay accepted too! interviewed in early November. Did any of you guys pay the deposit yet? I paid the deposit, but the page still has the link for me to pay the deposit again. Is this normal?
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It's that way for me as well - but you should get a receipt e-mailed to you.
 
ohmylanta said:
yay accepted too! interviewed in early November. Did any of you guys pay the deposit yet? I paid the deposit, but the page still has the link for me to pay the deposit again. Is this normal?
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It did the same for me too. It goes away in a few days.
 
jusanothapremed said:
It did the same for me too. It goes away in a few days.
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Wait, is there a way to send in the deposit online? I thought the deposit was supposed to be sent in as a check with the acknowledgement form. Am I missing something?
 
safe said:
Wait, is there a way to send in the deposit online? I thought the deposit was supposed to be sent in as a check with the acknowledgement form. Am I missing something?
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you can pay the deposit through a link in the secondary interface.
 
pyrrion89 said:
+6 not surprised though, my interviewer straight up told me to not be surprised if I got wait-listed O_O
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That's funny bc on your MDApps you got into schools that some might argue are better than WashU. I had to laugh though: "aggressive---but in the best kind of way. Aggressive toward helping others." --- 😆
 
@DermViser what's your beef with WashU? Your comments about grading are insightful and something a premed should consider. But I just can't shake this feeling that you have something personal against the school and, to be honest, this somewhat detracts from your advice.
 
Interviewed mid-november haven't heard back yet, idk what that means :/
 
My interview went really well too, but I'm assuming I've been waitlisted? My post interview predictions haven't really matched up with reality.
 
Did anyone else not have the friendly interview that seems to be typical of WashU? Mine wasn't confrontational or mean, but it wasn't particularly conversational either. I essentially fielded question after question about my resume for an hour. Obviously I would have no problem with this otherwise, but hearing all the other glowing responses regarding this school's interview day made me nervous.
 
lazywindmill said:
Did anyone else not have the friendly interview that seems to be typical of WashU? Mine wasn't confrontational or mean, but it wasn't particularly conversational either. I essentially fielded question after question about my resume for an hour. Obviously I would have no problem with this otherwise, but hearing all the other glowing responses regarding this school's interview day made me nervous.
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I sort of felt the same. Although my interviewer's daughter was in labor that day, so she was on the phone for about 5 minutes in the middle of our interview, and I'm guessing she was pretty distracted by it....
 
lazywindmill said:
Did anyone else not have the friendly interview that seems to be typical of WashU? Mine wasn't confrontational or mean, but it wasn't particularly conversational either. I essentially fielded question after question about my resume for an hour. Obviously I would have no problem with this otherwise, but hearing all the other glowing responses regarding this school's interview day made me nervous.
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My interviewer was not exceptionally friendly, it was just a pretty normal professional interview like you described. Everyone else like students/deans/staff were really friendly though
 
Does anyone know if WUSTL has already awarded merit based aid?
 
ZuluHotel said:
My interviewer was not exceptionally friendly, it was just a pretty normal professional interview like you described. Everyone else like students/deans/staff were really friendly though
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Thanks for the response. That's what I was hoping. And yeah, the rest of WashU was very impressive and friendly.
 
medicalhope said:
Oh sorry, I missed that. Thanks! I guess theres no hope then 🙁 lol
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I believe they are given on a rolling basis. I've heard that waitlisted students have received merit scholarships. Can someone confirm?
 
lazywindmill said:
Thanks for the response. That's what I was hoping. And yeah, the rest of WashU was very impressive and friendly.
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I had a very intense 90 minute grilling by a faculty member who went over my application with a fine tooth comb and who posed several hypothetical medical ethics questions.
 
Amygdarya said:
@DermViser what's your beef with WashU? Your comments about grading are insightful and something a premed should consider. But I just can't shake this feeling that you have something personal against the school and, to be honest, this somewhat detracts from your advice.
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Well shake it. It's nothing personal at all. I know this will shock you, but it's not as if residency program directors have the latest copy of USWNR sitting next to them. THEY DON'T CARE. I was laughing at the quote from that poster's MDApps from the WashU interview. Only an insanely naïve 22 yr. old premed (not the poster, obviously) would actually believe that crock. I'm laughing at the level of hubris the Dean had in making that comment. That poster had gotten into schools, many of which have the same opportunities and resources available to help their students in the match for competitive specialties.
 
DermViser said:
Well shake it. It's nothing personal at all. I know this will shock you, but it's not as if residency program directors have the latest copy of USWNR sitting next to them. THEY DON'T CARE. I was laughing at the quote from that poster's MDApps from the WashU interview. Only an insanely naïve 22 yr. old premed (not the poster, obviously) would actually believe that crock. I'm laughing at the level of hubris the Dean had in making that comment. That poster had gotten into schools, many of which have the same opportunities and resources available to help their students in the match for competitive specialties.
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What, believe that students who go to WashU aren't just a bunch of aggressive gunners out to make your life hell? Excuse my ignorance but where do you get the confidence to say that this would be naive (serious question)?
 
fuzzytoad said:
What, believe that students who go to WashU aren't just a bunch of gunners? Excuse my ignorance but where do you get the confidence to say that this would be naive (serious question)?
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No, I said when the Dean says students at WashU are "aggressive---but in the best kind of way. Aggressive toward helping others," only a naïve premed would believe that.
 
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Sorry if this has been already covered here, but how do we apply for financial aid? When should accepted students submit their financial aid information?

Also, is there a separate procedure for applying to merit-based financial aid?
 
toosoontoparty said:
Sorry if this has been already covered here, but how do we apply for financial aid? When should accepted students submit their financial aid information?

Also, is there a separate procedure for applying to merit-based financial aid?
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There is no separation application for merit-based aid. A lot of them apparently come out around April-ish so we are still in the running 🙂. Everyone is considered for it. Also, as people withdraw from WashU, some of which were give merit aid, that merit aid would then be given to someone else, so we could hear offers from them anytime.

Not sure about financial aid part. I guess you would have to go through FAFSA and some other applications.
 
DermViser said:
Well shake it. It's nothing personal at all. I know this will shock you, but it's not as if residency program directors have the latest copy of USWNR sitting next to them. THEY DON'T CARE. I was laughing at the quote from that poster's MDApps from the WashU interview. Only an insanely naïve 22 yr. old premed (not the poster, obviously) would actually believe that crock. I'm laughing at the level of hubris the Dean had in making that comment. That poster had gotten into schools, many of which have the same opportunities and resources available to help their students in the match for competitive specialties.
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Nothing personal at all - is this why you've been so *aggressively* active in a WashU application thread without having any connection to the school? Why didn't you take your advice where you could reach more premeds if giving advice was your point?

As for WashU, its match lists speak for the school's outcomes: WashU graduates get into competitive specialties and highly ranked residencies (at least as far as I can tell for IM and PEDs), preclinical grades and class ranking be damned. It's not like half the WashU graduates (i.e. the bottom half ranking-wise) match into crappy residencies. So a school's name doesn't matter that much to PDs compared to Step scores, recommendations etc. - fine, I don't think anyone was arguing with you about this - but rankings don't matter as much as you make it sound either (judging by the match lists mentioned above).
Plus, you forget that not everyone wants to match into dermatology. I, for one, am interested in less competitive specialties. Though I'm also interested in academic medicine, which is still competitive - but then it's more about your research, publications etc. WashU provides some of the most amazing research opportunities in general and in my area of interest in particular - and it has plenty of funding for medical student research (You want to do AIDS research in Africa? - Knock yourself out!). I want to go to a school that provides (funded) opportunities for me to do what I want to do, and WashU is exactly this kind of school.

As was mentioned earlier, preclinical grades make only 1/3 of rating, and clinical rotations are graded in (almost) all schools anyway. Moreover, if grading makes people study harder, all for the better: preclinical grades (in schools that have them) is one of the best predictors of Step 1 scores (shocking: learning the material well helps on the test!). You're saying that PhDs that teach preclinical classes teach stuff that's irrelevant to board tests and clinical rotations. Guess what? This is not necessarily true, and I'm saying this as a PhD who taught at 2 medical schools; it actually depends on how the class is organized - I had to digest a ton of clinical stuff relevant to the basic science I was teaching for every single class. And, in any case, you can't say anything about the board and clinical relevance of the preclinical stuff that is taught at WashU simply because you haven't studied there; you're making assumptions here.
Not to mention, WashU scores are not too shabby, either, so it's not like studying for graded preclinical classes interferes with board preparation at WashU.
In other words, whatever WashU is doing to their students, it's working.

As for student competitiveness, call me a naive premed, but I'd expect competitive students at all top schools simply because that's the kind of students they select, ambitious and competitive. You don't get into a top 10 medical school by taking it easy.
 
Hipocrates said:
I had a very intense 90 minute grilling by a faculty member who went over my application with a fine tooth comb and who posed several hypothetical medical ethics questions.
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ok, well at least I wasn't singled out, haha. thanks for the response. I'm hoping it's just a stylistic thing between different interviewers.
 
Just for statistics: I had a very friendly and interesting (i.e. not your typical med school interview questions) interview with, I suspect, the same adcom member as pyrrion89 🙂

And for those worrying about their chances: I interviewed around mid-November and was accepted last week. Before last Saturday, I was quite sure I would be wait listed or rejected. Hang in there!
 
Complete in July, received a pre-interview rejection letter by snail mail today, dated 2/18. Can hardly believe it. What's wrong with them? I will definitely be writing a strongly-worded email demanding that they appeal this foul injustice.



...ha, just kidding. I'm neither surprised nor bummed. Congratulations to everyone accepted and good luck for those still waiting! Who knows, if I matriculate at SLU, maybe we can grab burgers sometime. Because that's what I remember the most about my trip to St. Louis. Burgers. Priorities, people.
 
H
Amygdarya said:
Nothing personal at all - is this why you've been so *aggressively* active in a WashU application thread without having any connection to the school? Why didn't you take your advice where you could reach more premeds if giving advice was your point?

As for WashU, its match lists speak for the school's outcomes: WashU graduates get into competitive specialties and highly ranked residencies (at least as far as I can tell for IM and PEDs), preclinical grades and class ranking be damned. It's not like half the WashU graduates (i.e. the bottom half ranking-wise) match into crappy residencies. So a school's name doesn't matter that much to PDs compared to Step scores, recommendations etc. - fine, I don't think anyone was arguing with you about this - but rankings don't matter as much as you make it sound (judging by the match lists mentioned above).

Plus, you forget that not everyone wants to match into dermatology. I, for one, am interested in less competitive specialties. Though I'm also interested in academic medicine, which is still competitive - but then it's more about your research, publications etc. WashU provides some of the most amazing research opportunities in general and in my area of interest in particular - and it has plenty of funding for medical student research (You want to do AIDS research in Africa? - Knock yourself out!). I want to go to a school that provides (funded) opportunities for me to do what I want to do, and WashU is exactly this kind of school.

As was mentioned earlier, preclinical grades make only 1/3 of rating, and clinical rotations are graded in (almost) all schools anyway. Moreover, if grading makes people study harder, all for the better: preclinical grades (in schools that have them) is one of the best predictors of Step 1 scores (shocking: learning the material well helps on the test!). You're saying that PhDs that teach preclinical classes teach stuff that's irrelevant to board tests and clinical rotations. Guess what? This is not necessarily true, and I'm saying this as a PhD who taught at 2 medical schools; it actually depends on how the class is organized - I had to digest a ton of clinical stuff relevant to the basic science I was teaching for every single class. And, in any case, you can't say anything about the board and clinical relevance of the preclinical stuff that is taught at WashU simply because you haven't studied there; you're making assumptions here.
Not to mention, WashU scores are not too shabby, either, so it's not like studying for graded preclinical classes interferes with board preparation at WashU. In other words, whatever WashU is doing to their students, it's working.

As for student competitiveness, call me a naive premed, but I'd expect competitive students at all top schools simply because that's the kind of students they select, ambitious and competitive. You don't get into a top 10 medical school by taking it easy.
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I think you seem to be taking this way too personally. I'm sorry you feel that way, in order to justify your choice, but there are tons of students who have many very good options to choose from, not just WashU. They deserve to know what is important, esp. when going for competitive specialties (not just Derm) - which by the very nature of WashU's highest MCAT scores, selects for these type of students. Most WashU students aren't the type of student to be aiming for Family Medicine, for example.

As far as "I'd expect competitive students at all top schools simply because that's the kind of students they select, ambitious and competitive. You don't get into a top 10 medical school by taking it easy," --- All students at top 10 medical schools are ambitious and driven students. No one is arguing other wise. However, just like anyone else, medical students respond to incentives. There's a difference in defintion between between being ambitious/driven [internal motivation] vs. competitive [external motivation]. That's where you seem to be confused. Medical school in the first 2 years, functions sort of as a Laffer curve when it comes to grades. So for example, someone who gets an "88" and thus gets a "High Pass" vs. "91" and thus gets "Honors" in a course - the level of knowledge difference is little if not negligible. Forward thinking medical schools (mainly high prestige, top schools but even many state schools) have long recognized this.

Also academic medicine is not "competitive", there are tons of medical departments at universities, that will take people in their departments, bc it's a well known fact that you are paid less in academics, than in say, private practice. Now if you're wanting to be department chair, that's a whole different story, although to be fair, in places outside of the Ivies, it's still largely based on networking, not pedigree.

I know this is going to come as a shock to you, but Internal Medicine and Pediatrics by themselves, are not competitive residencies. That doesn't make those specialties "bad" by any means, but if someone is shooting to match into Internal Medicine or Pediatrics, then there are TONS of medical schools that will allow you to match at prestigious IM/Pediatrics residencies at a MUCH cheaper price. Even WashU's Pediatrics residency doesn't take only WashU students and takes many state school medical students.

Preclinicals make up 40% of one's rank (not 1/3) at WashU - so nearly half. That's a lot. Since you brought up grading again, though, I just think it speaks a lot about the culture of the school towards how it feels towards its students when it believes that preclinical course grading will motivate its students to study. I mean these are students with the HIGHEST average MCAT score in the nation. You don't NEED to convince these type of students to study and master the information. Even less "prestigious" schools in lower tiers have figured out the huge mismatch between goals and incentives that grades in preclinical courses creates with no added benefit at the end. This is well-established in the medical literature.

Whether you like it or not, if you place a class of 100 medical students in an environment in which you stratify people into H/HP/P/F (pretty much A/B/C/F) and only a certain percentage of people can get each grade, the class will behave very differently than if it was P/F. Clinical rotations are obviously graded for a reason, as there is a huge correlation between how one does during the clinical years and residency performance. This does not at all hold true for the preclinical years. Medicine is a life-long learning profession. If you need the reward of a grade to motivate you in your pursuit of a career, you will have trouble later, when there is no longer a grade as a reward.

If you think preclinical grades are the best predictors of USMLE Step 1 scores, then you will be in for a shock. The USMLE Step 1 is a standardized exam. It is not a professor-dependent, textbook-dependent, or syllabus-dependent exam. It's also not a rote-memorization/regurgitation exam. It's an exam in which many of the questions cross disciplines and aren't "subject-based". There are tons of medical students who do great at learning information from powerpoints and syllabi and thus ace professor-made exams, and do not so hot on USMLE Step 1, a standardized exam. There are much better predictors available now regarding USMLE performance than letters on a transcript.
 
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I think the H/P/F argument might be pretty moot - at my interview Dr. Chung strongly suggested that by the time this year's matriculants reach second year, the curriculum would be switched to P/F. Further (based on the USWNR step 1 thread), WashU is one of the schools with the highest step 1 scores, so again, I don't see what the problem is.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that the only real criticism of WashU being put forth is that students are highly competitive and that this is a necessarily a fault - but I haven't heard a convincing argument of this yet. The idea that there exists a strict dichotomy between "externally motivated" and "internally motivated" is unconvincing - the most competitive people I know (myself included) try their best to help others in order to raise the bar of competition - basic sportsmanship. Are we externally motivated because we compare ourselves with others, or internally motivated because actively create this environment for ourselves? A better question: who cares? It may well be possible to create a community where competition is not a zero-sum game - the fact that WashU has an H/P/F curriculum may well speak toward its culture, but does not in and of itself imply anything negative. The idea that all competitive people are insecure and antagonistic by nature seems like an antiquated notion to me.

That said, I understand your concern DermViser - I'm just not sure what specific aspects of WashU you think are so terrible, other than the H/P/F curriculum (which, as mentioned, may be changed anyways).
 
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fuzzytoad said:
I think the H/P/F argument might be pretty moot - at my interview Dr. Chung strongly suggested that by the time this year's matriculants reach second year, the curriculum would be switched to P/F. Further (based on the USWNR step 1 thread), WashU is one of the schools with the highest step 1 scores, so again, I don't see what the problem is.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that the only real criticism of WashU being put forth is that students are highly competitive and that this is a necessarily a fault - but I haven't heard a convincing argument of this yet. The idea that there exists a strict dichotomy between "externally motivated" and "internally motivated" is unconvincing - the most competitive people I know (myself included) try their best to help others in order to raise the bar of competition - basic sportsmanship. Are we externally motivated because we compare ourselves with others, or internally motivated because actively create this environment for ourselves? A better question: who cares? It may well be possible to create a community where competition is not a zero-sum game - the fact that WashU has an H/P/F curriculum may well speak toward its culture, but does not in and of itself imply anything negative. The idea that all competitive people are insecure and antagonistic by nature seems like an antiquated notion to me.

That said, I understand your concern DermViser - I'm just not sure what specific aspects of WashU you think are so terrible, other than the H/P/F curriculum (which, as mentioned, may be changed anyways).
Click to expand...

It's not just H/P/F; it's H/HP/P/F.

Also, even if they switch to P/F in year 2, I guarantee you they will still keep internal rankings just like in year 1, which is "pass/fail.''
 
ranson said:
Also, even if they switch to P/F in year 2, I guarantee you they will still keep internal rankings just like in year 1, which is "pass/fail.''
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Many, if not most, P/F schools rank internally. I don't know why DermViser is not actively participating in the corresponding threads.
 
fuzzytoad said:
I think the H/P/F argument might be pretty moot - at my interview Dr. Chung strongly suggested that by the time this year's matriculants reach second year, the curriculum would be switched to P/F. Further (based on the USWNR step 1 thread), WashU is one of the schools with the highest step 1 scores, so again, I don't see what the problem is.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that the only real criticism of WashU being put forth is that students are highly competitive and that this is a necessarily a fault - but I haven't heard a convincing argument of this yet. The idea that there exists a strict dichotomy between "externally motivated" and "internally motivated" is unconvincing - the most competitive people I know (myself included) try their best to help others in order to raise the bar of competition - basic sportsmanship. Are we externally motivated because we compare ourselves with others, or internally motivated because actively create this environment for ourselves? A better question: who cares? It may well be possible to create a community where competition is not a zero-sum game - the fact that WashU has an H/P/F curriculum may well speak toward its culture, but does not in and of itself imply anything negative. The idea that all competitive people are insecure and antagonistic by nature seems like an antiquated notion to me.

That said, I understand your concern DermViser - I'm just not sure what specific aspects of WashU you think are so terrible, other than the H/P/F curriculum (which, as mentioned, may be changed anyways).
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The grading system is H/HP/P/F, not just H/P/F.

Other aspects which I "think are so terrible":
1. a relatively traditional subject based curriculum when most innovative schools have switched to an entirely organ-system based curriculum, more in line with the USMLE: http://www.usmle.org/step-1/#content-outlines (i.e. Baylor, Case, etc.)
2. Traditional length of time of preclinicals - 2 years (vs. Baylor College of Medicine - which has also cut it down to 1.5 yrs by removing redundancies in topics - allowing their students more study time and much more elective rotation time).
3. Non-Innovative curriculum - (vs. Case Western, Duke - which allows it's students to devote protected time in research as part of the curriculum to build up their residency application)
4. relatively little time after classes are over to study for boards in comparison to other schools

Contrast this with other Top 10 schools.

Just remember for Step 1 scores - that USNWR data is self-reported, but not verified.

I wouldn't go based off a "strongly suggested" from an admissions officer as to a curriculum change to P/F. You have to go based off of what the curriculum is, not based on how it MIGHT be after you enroll, since admissions officers promises are not binding.

See the minutes from 3/20/13: http://msg.wustl.edu/minutes.php
IV. Second-year P/F Grading
a. Got results from survey, a summary will be sent out soon
i. Most students said it would lower stress and be better for admissions
ii. Many course masters, clerkship directors, and residency directors are opposed though

If a.ii. is correct (which I have no reason to doubt), then it's highly unlikely that the school will support a grade change, when a majority of their faculty are against it. It speaks to the conservativeness of the school to change, when it comes to a change that would greatly impact the work-life balance of their students. And yes, if you need grades to motivate you, by definition, you are externally motivated.
 
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Amygdarya said:
Many, if not most, P/F schools rank internally. I don't know why DermViser is not actively participating in the corresponding threads.
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Sorry, you're wrong. Case Western, Stanford, USC-Keck are few of the many examples, that do not rank students internally with a P/F curriculum. Nice try though.
 
DermViser said:
Sorry, you're wrong. Case Western, Stanford, USC-Keck are few of the many examples, that do not rank students internally with a P/F curriculum. Nice try though.
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Dermviser, are you a resident at WashU?
 
I'd like a motion to end the negativity on this thread. Valid points have been made on both sides, I don't forsee anyone backing down or changing opinion anytime soon, so can we call it a draw and bring this thread back to a friendlier tone? Pretty please? 🙂
 
So this is just a thought: To someone like me (unless I can go to somewhere like Stanford or Harvard where everything--preclinical and clinical--is P/F), isn't the ability to have some of my ranking determined by objective year 2 grades desirable? As opposed to a ranking based entirely on subjective year 3 and 4 grades.

Can someone comment on this or point out a fallacy?
 
happyfeet1292 said:
I'd like a motion to end the negativity on this thread. Valid points have been made on both sides, I don't forsee anyone backing down or changing opinion anytime soon, so can we call it a draw and bring this thread back to a friendlier tone? Pretty please? 🙂
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I second that motion. I'll drop it. 😉
 
termitechips said:
So this is just a thought: To someone like me (unless I can go to somewhere like Stanford or Harvard where everything--preclinical and clinical--is P/F), isn't the ability to have some of my ranking determined by objective year 2 grades desirable? As opposed to a ranking based entirely on subjective year 3 and 4 grades.

Can someone comment on this or point out a fallacy?
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Harvard is not P/F in the clinical years.
 
Well said Derm. Not trying to be negative - just honestly curious. Would love a comment from the other side.
 
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