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Not applying to schools yet, but I'm proud of the integrity I see here, and I hope that it ends up being enough to make them notice and do something about this (as optimistic as that is).
2019-2020 Mt. Sinai (Icahn)
- Thread starter PapaGuava
- Start date
Probably not that anyone cares about me specifically, but I was somewhat pressured by my advisor and family not to pull my app yet (mostly because I don't have any acceptances yet). I will be attending my interview in early november. I can't imagine going here, but it will be intriguing to see if it is addressed on interview day in light of this news.
I hope that I can get a better sense of the culture in person. I will be reporting back to this lovely thread with my impressions. I know I might get some flack for this, but wanted to be transparent I guess, in case anyone is keeping track. My hopes aren't high for them at all.
I hope that I can get a better sense of the culture in person. I will be reporting back to this lovely thread with my impressions. I know I might get some flack for this, but wanted to be transparent I guess, in case anyone is keeping track. My hopes aren't high for them at all.
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I’m also going to be attending my early November interview, similarly for lack of an acceptance and proximity to home, though it was never really very high on my list in the first place.
I’m also curious about whether they address these concerns, and whether applicants are truly withdrawing in a quantity that, for them, merits a statement.
Maybe I’ll see you there? I’ll be there on a Wednesday.
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If the article was accurate about Dean Charney being oppressive against transparency, then I wonder if an interview will even give you an indication of what it's like to actually go there. They probably vet the people who interact with the candidates is my guess.
I couldn't find anything on the portal either so I just sent them an email. Wasn't sure what else to do
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It’s evidence of a broken system that we unfortunately have to play in, so I don’t fault you for keeping your application in the game. I hope more interviews come your way soon!
If I get an interview here I plan on directly asking them about how they plan on addressing their culture and any changes they are making. (Maybe it’s better not to say this because I know current students and adcoms are looking and can prepare a PR answer, but they probably are doing that already)
I'll be there on Monday the 4th. It honestly was a high reach for me, and to be honest, I think I might be having a hard time letting go because it IS a prestigious school and one that I never thought I would see the inside of. It also close to home for me, but requires a train ride, for which the ticket has already been bought...
Honestly, if they don't bring it up, then I have a hard time imaging myself ending up there UNLESS it happens to be my only acceptance or something crazy like that. I'm hoping that the students at least are forthcoming. It just seems absolutely foolish at this point to withdraw without any As. But at the same time, I have this like weird sense of dread about not having enough integrity/grit to withdraw.
Thank you for the encouragement/support! My hope is that there is a sense of genuine discomfort/heartbreak, and not just a PR answer. Time will tell, I suppose.
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I might ask that question myself, even if it gets received negatively. I didn’t really like Sinai much anyways, and I think that’s something that’d play a pretty big role in me attending a school like Sinai.
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The more people who ask, the better! We all have a part to play in this. For people who can make it to the interview and don’t need an acceptance, it would be good to pressure them — whether that’s through withdrawing your app or asking critical and thoughtful questions about future steps.
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I honestly spend the night before or morning of every interview trying to fall in love with it, and looking for one or two personal connections to the school/city that I emphasize during interviews (even if there are other aspects that I dislike).
I don’t know how much enthusiasm I’m feigning, since I’ve genuinely liked or had compelling reasons to go to all schools where I’ve interviewed so far.
I’m a pretty enthusiastic/cheery person in general though, so I don’t think it’ll be too hard for me. As for Sinai in particular, my father actually worked there for several years, and I know many people who went there for some portion of their training.
I’m slightly wary about being perceived as a flexing smart-alec by other applicants (I’ve bumped into several people multiple times already), but I guess that’s small price to pay 😛
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If you are attending an interview primarily because you dont have an admission, you should not raise the subject at all.
If you attend interview after obtaining an admission, by all means, go in there and start blasting away.
If you attend interview after obtaining an admission, by all means, go in there and start blasting away.
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What other reservations do people have about the school other than these incidents that have been happening? Admittedly I ideally would like to be able to go to a NYC med school (went to college there, love the city, have some minor personal experience with a few of the med schools). I'm just wondering what makes you think "meh" about the school @Enterococcus
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For me, it was mostly not negative things about the school, but missing positive things that other schools I’m interviewing at do have. I have a very particular background and very particular (atypical) career interests where only a handful of institutions would be able to be a perfect match for me.
I only applied because I have personal connections to Sinai and it’s somewhat close to home. These incidents and a history of a lack of inclusivity definitely do not help its case.
For every positive thing I can think of for Sinai, I’ve interviewed elsewhere that did better, whether that’s rank, personalization of curriculum, location, access to a wide breadth academic/extracurricular resources, or patient population. Not to put down Sinai or anything, or say that it’s not a great institution (at least, in pedagogy and prestige), it just isn’t a great fit for my goals, and only made it on my list because I cast a wide net.
At this point, even though I don’t have an A at all yet, this is one school for which I wouldn’t cry over a rejection.
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Wow been a while since I was gone. I'm just going to throw in my two cents regarding the recent discussions here. As some of you may know, I'm an M-4 who is also part of the admissions committee.
1. Withdrawing apps: Goes without saying but if you want to withdraw your app for any reason then you always have that right. If in this case, it's solely to stand against an injustice, that's cool too and glad people are actually doing so because without making a stand change can never occur. Only bit of advice is for those who don't have an acceptance yet or have not gone on a ton of interviews. Med school admissions acceptance is far different than residency admissions, ~40% compared to a 94% acceptance rate. Getting into med school is against you since majority don't get in. That being said, usually applicants who get invites at Sinai are strong enough to get invites from other places so for the most part, withdrawing without any acceptances for a strong applicant with other interviews already secured should be fine. But, if you don't fit into those categories or are a weaker applicant then I recommend you at the very least go on the interview at Sinai and then down the road make your decision. Only because this process is not as guaranteed and once you're in med school you're pretty much set to become a doctor. You don't want to go through the headache of re-applying.
2. Sinai's culture (the med school part): The med school and the hospital are somewhat separated during the first two years. Your clinical educators during the first two are usually educators who are student-favorites and volunteer to teach you. You will get really passionate caring teachers. No douchebags in this regard. I imagine 3rd year is pretty similar at other institutions. Once you go onto the clinical years during 3rd and 4th year (3rd year mostly as 4th year is basically electives, away rotations, vacations, etc), your experience will vary based on which hospital site you get, which residents and attendings you work with. I've done my 3rd year rotations at Sinai (main), Sinai Beth israel, Sinai West/St Lukes, and Sinai Elmhurst. I haven't had the experience of anyone being mean to me, anyone humiliating to me, or being a flat-out ***hole. One of the biggest reasons is that of our student mistreatment reporting process. There are many ways to report mistreatment confidentially. For the most part, mistreatments are rare and I never had to report it. I've been humiliated before in a clinical setting actually as a pre-med when I volunteered at a hospital. A nurse practitioner made me feel stupid during my first few weeks there and I remember dreading going there. I know what humiliation feels like and I haven't experienced that as a student here. The mistreatment process is well known that even residents are aware of how they should treat us and sometimes they will joke around and tell each other to not say anything mean to the students cause it'll bite them in back later. I know for a fact the Surgery Residency at Sinai during orientation tells their new interns to not be douchebags to med students. Surgery residents have called Sinai students "soft" because of how well we get treated and what not. Surgery culture is something else though but it is the best example I have to show how "kush" it is here as a student.
3. Recent allegations: I've never really interacted with Dean Charney and don't really care to. Most med students don't anyway. We have our own leadership we feel comfortable talking to and reporting to. Maybe that's a good or bad thing but I feel at Sinai, I can talk to the leadership who can make changes that affect my education as a student here. Charney is way too high in the ladder for students to go to with problems like asking our school to pay for a year's subcription to Uworld or Pathoma (which they do now!) or provide NBME practice exams after each course (they do that too! woot!). Whenever Charney comes to talks to students during white coat ceremony or some other big event he gives the same speech of how great we are and the amazing things being done at Mount Sinai. That's pretty much our interaction with him lol.
Am I surprised of the events that unfolded? Initially, I was and that's coming from a student's perspective. The medical school admin has been pretty good to me and taken care of a lot of my personal issues. We also just hired a new dean for Student Affairs and I think she is going to do amazing. She is someone who really will care for students and listen to students and not just stick to the school policies like the previous dean did. I mean I wish I could list all the things the administration has done for me or the changes they've made during my time here. Sinai always had a very welcoming and friendly atmosphere from the med school to the workers to the graduate school to the researchers. So definitely a bit surprising initially. What is disappointing is the school's response to it. An internal investigation is kinda bull**** as there's a conflict of interest. I do believe the allegations to be true just because of this: the hospital side is different than the med school side. I've definitely heard of people complain about the "bad bureaucracy" working as an employee at Sinai. But, I never really cared to press people what they mean because it didn't really affect me as a student (or at least I felt it didn't). I think I was too stressed with med school stuff to understand what people even meant so it was just conversations in passing.
But after these events came to light, it became not so surprising to me. And I think the reason why at least I was kind of oblivious to it is as a med student at Sinai you sort of get shielded from all the "bad bureaucracy" until it does come to light. It is a slap in the face because the school cares about social justice deeply but the hospital side did not reflect it in this case. I think big companies or big schools will always try to save money and go against accusations. I don't think that's anything new as we hear it about it in the news frequently. None of it seems morally right but when money is on the line, everyone seems to lose their morals and integrity lol. So bottom line is, I think if you are a women or of color or anyone and you are worried, from the med school side of things, you should be fine and feel protected, safe, and heard. And that's why I mention the school is separated from Charney and his people. Usually, I understand how top leadership can affect others down the ladder and in this case affect the school.. But I don't think it has... If it did indeed affect the school, then many more women or other injustices would come up in our student body and I haven't heard of anything like that... The dean of admissions, the dean of diversity, new dean of student affairs, dean of curriculum are all women so I think you are in great hands from the med school's side of things. As a dude, I think women are definitely more compassionate beings lol. I feel dudes do tend to be more "macho" or egotistical so I love that the med school leadership has a lot of women at the top. I always feel listened to and cared for. I honestly can't weigh in on the hospital side of things as a full-time employee since obviously I never worked in the hospital side other than the role of a med student. Like I said, we're pretty protected from attendings and residents saying anything bad to us when on rotations so if there any any bad apples on the clinical side of things, they know better or else...
Like I said, I don't think the events that occurred are pervasive throughout Sinai. If they were this school would be beaten to death a long time ago and the students would be the first to let you know. It definitely is under serious damage control right now and definitely does not look good. But, I can say with positivity that the school cares about its students and it is more "kush" here than perhaps other NYC top schools. I hear from other residents "you Sinai students have it so nice here, I never had this at my school." Even the Sinai internal medicine residents feel cared for. Maybe anecdotal but, the ones from columbia med school come to Sinai for internal medicine because they feel columbia doesn't care about them as much as Sinai's internal medicine department does.
Bottom Line: I think if you have multiple acceptances then definitely go with your gut feeling and your heart's desires. If you are a weaker applicant or with a single acceptance and it's Sinai, you're going to be in good hands. Besides, you guys will see at the end of the day, med school for residency is all about doing well on Step 1. Residency is where you get your real training to become a doctor. And doing well on Step 1 is mostly based on how well you study. Uworld, Pathoma, Sketchy, First Aid, and Anki is how you rock Step 1. Doesn't matter if you go to Harvard or any other school, that's how you open your doors to any residency program (until maybe step 1 becomes pass/fail). And from there, there are nuances that certain schools have it better. Obviously a program like Yale with no exams, no shelf exams during 3rd year, sound amazing. But heck, it's Yale, only the top applicants will get in. I'm grateful I got into med school so I couldn't be as choosy. For those who can choose, you're in a fortunate position so definitely do what you want. Yes, schools and residencies too (since I'm interviewing now for residency), put forth their best pitch to you. However, I always try to keep it real. I can only speak to Sinai and what it's like here. I can't offer how Sinai compares to other schools in regards to the nuances you guys may be wondering about. If you guys have questions based on your interviews and want to compare/contrast with Sinai, then happy to answer them. At the end of the day, your education in med school is what you make of it. Good luck to everyone for the rest of the cycle!
Apologies for rambling and for any typos.
1. Withdrawing apps: Goes without saying but if you want to withdraw your app for any reason then you always have that right. If in this case, it's solely to stand against an injustice, that's cool too and glad people are actually doing so because without making a stand change can never occur. Only bit of advice is for those who don't have an acceptance yet or have not gone on a ton of interviews. Med school admissions acceptance is far different than residency admissions, ~40% compared to a 94% acceptance rate. Getting into med school is against you since majority don't get in. That being said, usually applicants who get invites at Sinai are strong enough to get invites from other places so for the most part, withdrawing without any acceptances for a strong applicant with other interviews already secured should be fine. But, if you don't fit into those categories or are a weaker applicant then I recommend you at the very least go on the interview at Sinai and then down the road make your decision. Only because this process is not as guaranteed and once you're in med school you're pretty much set to become a doctor. You don't want to go through the headache of re-applying.
2. Sinai's culture (the med school part): The med school and the hospital are somewhat separated during the first two years. Your clinical educators during the first two are usually educators who are student-favorites and volunteer to teach you. You will get really passionate caring teachers. No douchebags in this regard. I imagine 3rd year is pretty similar at other institutions. Once you go onto the clinical years during 3rd and 4th year (3rd year mostly as 4th year is basically electives, away rotations, vacations, etc), your experience will vary based on which hospital site you get, which residents and attendings you work with. I've done my 3rd year rotations at Sinai (main), Sinai Beth israel, Sinai West/St Lukes, and Sinai Elmhurst. I haven't had the experience of anyone being mean to me, anyone humiliating to me, or being a flat-out ***hole. One of the biggest reasons is that of our student mistreatment reporting process. There are many ways to report mistreatment confidentially. For the most part, mistreatments are rare and I never had to report it. I've been humiliated before in a clinical setting actually as a pre-med when I volunteered at a hospital. A nurse practitioner made me feel stupid during my first few weeks there and I remember dreading going there. I know what humiliation feels like and I haven't experienced that as a student here. The mistreatment process is well known that even residents are aware of how they should treat us and sometimes they will joke around and tell each other to not say anything mean to the students cause it'll bite them in back later. I know for a fact the Surgery Residency at Sinai during orientation tells their new interns to not be douchebags to med students. Surgery residents have called Sinai students "soft" because of how well we get treated and what not. Surgery culture is something else though but it is the best example I have to show how "kush" it is here as a student.
3. Recent allegations: I've never really interacted with Dean Charney and don't really care to. Most med students don't anyway. We have our own leadership we feel comfortable talking to and reporting to. Maybe that's a good or bad thing but I feel at Sinai, I can talk to the leadership who can make changes that affect my education as a student here. Charney is way too high in the ladder for students to go to with problems like asking our school to pay for a year's subcription to Uworld or Pathoma (which they do now!) or provide NBME practice exams after each course (they do that too! woot!). Whenever Charney comes to talks to students during white coat ceremony or some other big event he gives the same speech of how great we are and the amazing things being done at Mount Sinai. That's pretty much our interaction with him lol.
Am I surprised of the events that unfolded? Initially, I was and that's coming from a student's perspective. The medical school admin has been pretty good to me and taken care of a lot of my personal issues. We also just hired a new dean for Student Affairs and I think she is going to do amazing. She is someone who really will care for students and listen to students and not just stick to the school policies like the previous dean did. I mean I wish I could list all the things the administration has done for me or the changes they've made during my time here. Sinai always had a very welcoming and friendly atmosphere from the med school to the workers to the graduate school to the researchers. So definitely a bit surprising initially. What is disappointing is the school's response to it. An internal investigation is kinda bull**** as there's a conflict of interest. I do believe the allegations to be true just because of this: the hospital side is different than the med school side. I've definitely heard of people complain about the "bad bureaucracy" working as an employee at Sinai. But, I never really cared to press people what they mean because it didn't really affect me as a student (or at least I felt it didn't). I think I was too stressed with med school stuff to understand what people even meant so it was just conversations in passing.
But after these events came to light, it became not so surprising to me. And I think the reason why at least I was kind of oblivious to it is as a med student at Sinai you sort of get shielded from all the "bad bureaucracy" until it does come to light. It is a slap in the face because the school cares about social justice deeply but the hospital side did not reflect it in this case. I think big companies or big schools will always try to save money and go against accusations. I don't think that's anything new as we hear it about it in the news frequently. None of it seems morally right but when money is on the line, everyone seems to lose their morals and integrity lol. So bottom line is, I think if you are a women or of color or anyone and you are worried, from the med school side of things, you should be fine and feel protected, safe, and heard. And that's why I mention the school is separated from Charney and his people. Usually, I understand how top leadership can affect others down the ladder and in this case affect the school.. But I don't think it has... If it did indeed affect the school, then many more women or other injustices would come up in our student body and I haven't heard of anything like that... The dean of admissions, the dean of diversity, new dean of student affairs, dean of curriculum are all women so I think you are in great hands from the med school's side of things. As a dude, I think women are definitely more compassionate beings lol. I feel dudes do tend to be more "macho" or egotistical so I love that the med school leadership has a lot of women at the top. I always feel listened to and cared for. I honestly can't weigh in on the hospital side of things as a full-time employee since obviously I never worked in the hospital side other than the role of a med student. Like I said, we're pretty protected from attendings and residents saying anything bad to us when on rotations so if there any any bad apples on the clinical side of things, they know better or else...
Like I said, I don't think the events that occurred are pervasive throughout Sinai. If they were this school would be beaten to death a long time ago and the students would be the first to let you know. It definitely is under serious damage control right now and definitely does not look good. But, I can say with positivity that the school cares about its students and it is more "kush" here than perhaps other NYC top schools. I hear from other residents "you Sinai students have it so nice here, I never had this at my school." Even the Sinai internal medicine residents feel cared for. Maybe anecdotal but, the ones from columbia med school come to Sinai for internal medicine because they feel columbia doesn't care about them as much as Sinai's internal medicine department does.
Bottom Line: I think if you have multiple acceptances then definitely go with your gut feeling and your heart's desires. If you are a weaker applicant or with a single acceptance and it's Sinai, you're going to be in good hands. Besides, you guys will see at the end of the day, med school for residency is all about doing well on Step 1. Residency is where you get your real training to become a doctor. And doing well on Step 1 is mostly based on how well you study. Uworld, Pathoma, Sketchy, First Aid, and Anki is how you rock Step 1. Doesn't matter if you go to Harvard or any other school, that's how you open your doors to any residency program (until maybe step 1 becomes pass/fail). And from there, there are nuances that certain schools have it better. Obviously a program like Yale with no exams, no shelf exams during 3rd year, sound amazing. But heck, it's Yale, only the top applicants will get in. I'm grateful I got into med school so I couldn't be as choosy. For those who can choose, you're in a fortunate position so definitely do what you want. Yes, schools and residencies too (since I'm interviewing now for residency), put forth their best pitch to you. However, I always try to keep it real. I can only speak to Sinai and what it's like here. I can't offer how Sinai compares to other schools in regards to the nuances you guys may be wondering about. If you guys have questions based on your interviews and want to compare/contrast with Sinai, then happy to answer them. At the end of the day, your education in med school is what you make of it. Good luck to everyone for the rest of the cycle!
Apologies for rambling and for any typos.
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D
deleted972488
Thank you for this very helpful and informative comment.
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Congrats! Do you mind sharing your complete date?
they let me know 4 days before, so I would reach out if your interview is in 3 days lol
Cultivating_Brainz
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Got a II last week. Complete late July.
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Congrats! Complete date?
D
deleted668917
II this week right as I was about to withdraw.
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Congrats! Do you mind sharing your complete date?
D
deleted668917
Are you going to go, or are you withdrawing?
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Recently interviewed here and was really impressed with how the administration was handling everything. They are aware and they are actually working to change. I felt this school was way more receptive to feedback, adaptation, and understanding students' needs than other schools I've visited. I would encourage everyone who has a chance to interview to go and see for yourself. Ask questions. Speak to students and administrators. Form your own opinions. I went in very hesitant, and walked out very pleasantly surprised.
I will echo this sentiment after interviewing yesterday. I went in with little to no expectations and really loved it. They admins didn't necessarily bring up everything that had been happening, but I asked students about it and they gave long, detailed thoughts about it and were very open. My undergrad institution was caught in the crosshairs of a more minor scandal when I was there and I do have to say, my experience as a student was far removed from the scandal and everyone was furious about it and working towards change. I do get the sense that the administration and faculty has been very open to hearing the students thoughts and concerns, although that has not necessarily translated to a change institution-wide--these things just take time. I would encourage those of you with IIs to see for yourself.
D
deleted668917
Are the interviews closed file or open file?
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open!
they told me (11/4 interview) that their first wave would be in January
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deleted668917
January
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Thank you very much for your insightful comments! I was wondering if you could offer any guidance on how often the committee meets and how they cycle through applicants who already interviewed. For example, if someone interviewed in September VS someone who interviewed in November. How/when does the committee usually reach a decision about the candidacy of the applicant? When for example would be good times before the January release date to actually express your actual interest/intent. I apologize if this is a loaded question but I think that the process is interesting and it would be nice to know who gets to decides who’s accepted and who isn’t. Thanks 🙂
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Committee meetings occur the following Monday/Tuesday the week you interviewed. All applicants are usually discussed and voted on. When actual acceptance lists are made is done by our dean of admissions and I'm not sure when they are done. I'd say post-interview letter of intent is fine anytime. The committee does not vote either to accept or not. We vote on a sliding scale. Happy to elaborate more if that's unclear.
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Hmm that makes sense! What criteria is the scale based on? I am assuming it’s from 1-10? Do stats matter at that point or are they not taken into consideration once you pass the initial screen? Thanks!
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Right??
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deleted688779
What happened? Did y’all get some promotional email which I am not even worthy of receiving?
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deleted994247
They are going to be sending us weekly newsletters called "Icahn Insights." Lol what is this purgatory we are trapped in? But to be optimistic, these emails could actually be helpful, who knows.
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deleted688779
D
deleted994247
yes
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Loll for real that email made me check the date again! It’s not January yet!!!
Current M1 here and happy to answer any questions - I check periodically.
I can vouch strongly for johnnytest and the experience of almostthere2024 and emf96 - I've popped in to answer questions of applicants while they were interviewing and have led the non-clinical tours for interviews in the past. I personally immensely enjoy my time at Sinai and my class as a whole is pretty furiously demanding change even though our medical school is kept fairly isolated from Charney and this incident (this is something we discuss with a lot of our teachers and faculty who share our sentiments). I also know that my classmates and I haven't shied away from offering our perspective on and discussing the issue with the applicants. The people I've met so far that are interviewing are a really impressive group and I'm super excited for all the people who do end up becoming the Sinai MD Class of 2024.
I can vouch strongly for johnnytest and the experience of almostthere2024 and emf96 - I've popped in to answer questions of applicants while they were interviewing and have led the non-clinical tours for interviews in the past. I personally immensely enjoy my time at Sinai and my class as a whole is pretty furiously demanding change even though our medical school is kept fairly isolated from Charney and this incident (this is something we discuss with a lot of our teachers and faculty who share our sentiments). I also know that my classmates and I haven't shied away from offering our perspective on and discussing the issue with the applicants. The people I've met so far that are interviewing are a really impressive group and I'm super excited for all the people who do end up becoming the Sinai MD Class of 2024.
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I apologize if this is a dumb question, but what do you mean by "our medical school is kept fairly isolated from Charney"? Is he not the dean of the medical school?
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He doesn’t talk to us pretty much ever or make any policies for us. I’ve seen him once on white coat ceremony (or was it orientation?) and once on a talk about ketamine.
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has sinai started sending out pre ii rejections?
kb1900 is correct: the people in power who really have an effect on how the medical school operates are Dean Muller, Dean Parkas, and the specific MedEd staff.
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