CWRU vs Dartmouth (potentially)

[bearintraining]

Hi all,

I may be putting the cart before the horse a little, but I'm international and it helps to have things a bit clearer in my head because it has to be organized pretty quickly and a lot of things have to fall into place.

I have a couple acceptances, one being Case Western Reserve University, and I just interviewed at Dartmouth (decision by early April) - I felt good about the Dartmouth interview, so I may have that as an option to consider. Anyway, please indulge me. Some info on me: I'm very interested in neurosurg, neurology, or neurooncol. My background is genetics/neurosciences/cancer biol. (phd degree; currently a post-doc.)

Case Western
The IQ classes kinda fall under both pro and con for me... there are aspects of it that I like, and some that I don't. Overall not a major issue though.
Pros:
- larger school, more resources
- city life
- close to an airport (makes it easier to visit family)
- connections with Cleveland Clinic; larger neurosurg faculty
- students score well on USMLE

Cons:
- feels more like "high school"
- lectures are not recorded
- expensive, with seemingly no opportunity for money (for me anyway)
- the required thesis -- given that I have a PhD already, I don't see this is a (major) benefit

Dartmouth
Pros:
- gorgeous new hospital
- the "ivy league" name
- great match list
- potential for some $$ to help, even as an international
- students are friendly, older, more community driven
- ability to rotate at California Pac. Med. C. (and elsewhere) for 3rd year core rotations
- very flexible with 3rd and 4th year
- students score very well on the USMLE
- lectures recorded

Cons:
- hospital is a level 1 trauma center, but likely to see much more at a bigger site than at DHMC
- fairly isolated location, although some "big box" stores nearby
- no real airport closeby (Lebanon, sort of); my folks would likely have to travel via Boston
- potential influence of school's current financial situation on med ed.
- probably somewhat less patient diversity than Case

Thank you!

P.S.: interviewed at WashU, but expecting this to a waitlist. I also loved that school and would probably pick it over either of the above, so I'm leaving it off the poll.

P.S.2: Feel free to mention additional pros and cons for each

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[HIFU]

Congrats on the acceptances, bear! I'm facing a similar situation with different schools. To me, I'd pick a school where I think I will be happy. Case and Dartmouth are both great, you won't go wrong with either one!


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[frchuatritons]

Both are equally ranked. Choose the one that is cheaper.

 

[RhinB]

2 points I think I'd consider in your position are the "high school" feel at Case - Dartmouth is known for having a generally older class size so given your PhD age it might be a better culture fit.

Another is I've heard Dartmouth has great neurology programs. I also interviewed at both schools and just going from how YOU described both schools, you seem to be learning towards Dartmouth already.

 

[bearintraining]

2 points I think I'd consider in your position are the "high school" feel at Case - Dartmouth is known for having a generally older class size so given your PhD age it might be a better culture fit.

Another is I've heard Dartmouth has great neurology programs. I also interviewed at both schools and just going from how YOU described both schools, you seem to be learning towards Dartmouth already.

It's certainly a tough choice overall (again, assuming Dartmouth offers). I would more likely than not be happy at either, just different trade offs. How did you feel about the two? Are there reasons you lean more towards one than the other?. I'm interested in other people's thoughts since sometimes there are things you don't know, or haven't thought of.

Edit: just to add that my interviewer also mentioned their center of excellence in the neurosciences, but he wasn't personally that familiar with it. Given the restructuring efforts, these centers may receive more funding over other activities at Dartmouth

 

[bearintraining]

Both are equally ranked. Choose the one that is cheaper.

Agreed, rankings seem to be a wash between these two.

 

[RhinB]

It's certainly a tough choice overall (again, assuming Dartmouth offers). I would more likely than not be happy at either, just different trade offs. How did you feel about the two? Are there reasons you lean more towards one than the other?. I'm interested in other people's thoughts since sometimes there are things you don't know, or haven't thought of.

Edit: just to add that my interviewer also mentioned their center of excellence in the neurosciences, but he wasn't personally that familiar with it. Given the restructuring efforts, these centers may receive more funding over other activities at Dartmouth

My motivations between Dartmouth and Case are different. I've got a pseudo background in business and would've gladly chosen Dartmouth over Case because of their great MBA program.

Things that really stood out to me:

• Dartmouth -
  • Small town. VERY small town (even considering I went to school in Ithaca).
  • The hospital is nice, but there is very little diversity in the patient population. On the flip side, they do say they emphasize the away rotations.
  • Small class size - something I personally like and it's probably necessary to keep the class fairly close-knit despite all the away rotations.
  • I don't even really remember what the students at Dartmouth felt like. Not sure if I just can't remember or if they didn't showcase the culture of the school well enough.
• EDIT:
  • Dartmouth, financially is in the RED at the moment. There's only an interim dean of the medical school while they're looking for a more current one but here's what I've heard about it:
    • School was renamed Geisel after Theodore Geisel (Dr. Suess).
    • The money was supposed to be given to the school after his wife's passing and they expected her to pass sooner, but she's stuck around.
    • So while Dartmouth "thought" they could be spending extra money, the money still hasn't come in. Some also suspect it'll take a while even after the wife's passing due to legal logistics in transferring the money over.
  • All the above is "hearsay" but in my interview I did ask one of the negative aspects of Dartmouth / could be improved and my interviewer said "Dartmouth is in the red". Again, the flip side is that he also said "it shouldn't affect the medical school education too much, but just the overall school in the long-run."
• Case -
  • Pretty big focus on research I'd say. They had that secondary question on it and since you're a PhD, I'm not sure how much more of a focus on research you want to pursue. I do think Case has "more" research opportunities than Dartmouth, but that's just a feeling more than a fact.
  • Larger class size
  • Student body is very friendly! I went on a beautiful day in cleveland. I think Case might be a bit warmer than Dartmouth but am not sure about that either.
  • One of my hs friends goes to Case and she says the class is pretty friendly with each other. Despite it being large, they get to know each other fairly well based on how the classes are structured.

That's all I got off the top of my head.

 

[stemingen]

Congrats first! My suggestion would be the cheaper one.

 

[bearintraining]

My motivations between Dartmouth and Case are different. I've got a pseudo background in business and would've gladly chosen Dartmouth over Case because of their great MBA program.

Things that really stood out to me:

• Dartmouth -
  • Small town. VERY small town (even considering I went to school in Ithaca).
  • The hospital is nice, but there is very little diversity in the patient population. On the flip side, they do say they emphasize the away rotations.
  • Small class size - something I personally like and it's probably necessary to keep the class fairly close-knit despite all the away rotations.
  • I don't even really remember what the students at Dartmouth felt like. Not sure if I just can't remember or if they didn't showcase the culture of the school well enough.
• EDIT:
  • Dartmouth, financially is in the RED at the moment. There's only an interim dean of the medical school while they're looking for a more current one but here's what I've heard about it:
    • School was renamed Geisel after Theodore Geisel (Dr. Suess).
    • The money was supposed to be given to the school after his wife's passing and they expected her to pass sooner, but she's stuck around.
    • So while Dartmouth "thought" they could be spending extra money, the money still hasn't come in. Some also suspect it'll take a while even after the wife's passing due to legal logistics in transferring the money over.
  • All the above is "hearsay" but in my interview I did ask one of the negative aspects of Dartmouth / could be improved and my interviewer said "Dartmouth is in the red".
• Case -
  • Pretty big focus on research I'd say. They had that secondary question on it and since you're a PhD, I'm not sure how much more of a focus on research you want to pursue. I do think Case has "more" research opportunities than Dartmouth, but that's just a feeling more than a fact.
  • Larger class size
  • Student body is very friendly! I went on a beautiful day in cleveland. I think Case might be a bit warmer than Dartmouth but am not sure about that either.
  • One of my hs friends goes to Case and she says the class is pretty friendly with each other. Despite it being large, they get to know each other fairly well based on how the classes are structured.

That's all I got off the top of my head.

Thanks for sharing. Yeah I was surprised when I found out Tuck was there and one of the best business schools in the world (not as knowledgeable on the U.S. schools in general due to my international status), and Dartmouth has some Money set aside to help students get the MBA. What is the motivation for an MBA? I know lots of medical students pursue it, but I'm not as familiar as to why - things like running your own private practice ?

 

[ChrisMack390]

Seems like you can't go wrong here really. Personally I think Dartmouth is a bit remote for me and I hate the cold, so it would be an easier decision, but those may not be factors for you.

 

[RhinB]

Thanks for sharing. Yeah I was surprised when I found out Tuck was there and one of the best business schools in the world (not as knowledgeable on the U.S. schools in general due to my international status), and Dartmouth has some Money set aside to help students get the MBA. What is the motivation for an MBA? I know lots of medical students pursue it, but I'm not as familiar as to why - things like running your own private practice ?

For me it's really about building the relationships and skills that help manage others. I've also come to realize that healthcare/any industry changes the most when the business side/the business leaders are the one changing it. There's a lot of things that can be improved in the US healthcare system and the fastest way to change things (in my opinion) is becoming a leader in the industry. My motivation for that has somewhat waned over the past year working in consulting and realizing I really want to treat patients.

Medicine is the main focus for me while MBA simply remains an interest. I also believe the MBA can help me rise through the leadership ranks in a hospital much more quickly. I've never seriously thought about opening my own private practice but it remains an option.

 

[p0gono]

Congrats, Bear! Crossing fingers for the Geisel decision.

I didn't interview at Dartmouth, so I don't have too much real feedback on your question, but I will point out the following that has been helpful for my thinking as a fellow old folk.

I'm wondering if the "high school" feeling you got at CWRU is more of a social / cultural difference than a true age difference. Of course, Dartmouth is one of the most non-traditional-friendly schools, but Case has it's share of them, too, especially compared to many comparable schools. For example, the MSAR has age demographics of the entering class now:

Dartmouth [super non-trad]
28% age 19-23
68% age 24-29 (whoa!)
3% age 30-39
none age 40+

CWRU [pretty non-trad]
62% age 19-23
34% age 24-29
3% age 30-39
1% age 40+ (2 students)

Wash U [super trad]
76% age 19-23
22% age 24-29
1.6% age 30-39 (2 students)
none age 40+

Also, I wonder if CWRU would waive the thesis requirement for you since you have a PhD? I don't remember what they said about that. It did seem like the thesis was pretty lax and could be almost anything you wanted as long as it related to medicine.

Edit: Anecdotally, I don't think CWRU has less "prestige" than Geisel within the medical community. (Within the lay population, it may be another story.) Physicians that I work with were quite impressed when I told them I interviewed at CWRU - it has been a well-respected school for a long time. Geisel is newer and less familiar to the old guys, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Their emphasis on away rotations actually sounds pretty awesome. You can't go wrong!

 

[BphysDoc]

Congrat, bear. I would lean toward Case Western - as a PhD myself, the potential research at Case is attractive. Having said that, now if you can get into Wash U, then it can be an easy choice. LOL.

 

[bearintraining]

Still neck and neck on the voting. Bumping this thread because I did actually get an acceptance at Dartmouth, and now I do have to decide!

 

[Lannister]

Congrats on your acceptances! You should totally go to Dartmouth so I can have your spot at Case.
Lol jk.
In all seriousness, from reading your post, it seems like you're leaning towards Dartmouth. But at the same time, if you're really into research, Case is obviously super research focused so that might suit your interests better than Dartmouth (not sure how research heavy Dartmouth is, though). Also, to comment on the whole "city life" feel of Case, I wouldn't really say that Cleveland is a true "city" experience in the way that NYC/Chicago/LA are. Uptown (where the med school is) is a nice area, but downtown is usually pretty deserted.

 

[M1member]

Biased here because I chose Dartmouth over Case. I did not like the curriculum at Case and also that classes were not recorded, it seemed like it would be harder to have other time outside of school if you could not watch lectures. I've had a lot of flexibility with my schedule here and am really grateful for it. Sure it's in the woods, but there is a lot going on here, and if you're an active student, you really won't miss the city life distractions except for better food. That would be nice. Case's admission team was super nice though!

 

[seeinghowitgoes]

I don't think you can go wrong either way, and I would go with the cheaper option if it's more than like 20k difference over the 4 years because in the end both schools can get you into literally any residency program you'd like down the road, but I just wanted to clear up one thing based on some of the pros/cons.

That is, not recording lectures doesn't matter - like zero. The way Case is setup once you begin the curriculum it doesn't affect students at all - I was worried about not having recorded lectures either (I'm not at case but have a similar setup) and couldn't fathom how it wouldn't matter, but you still get slides and there are a ton of great resources that are often much better than lectures given in Med schools (physicians, not always educators, are giving a lot of the lessons afterall). Anyway, I found it hard to believe until I lived it, but in my opinion that characteristic should be a non-consideration because it will not affect you in any real way.

Good luck with the choice!

 

[bearintraining]

bumping for any last minute advice/comments.

BTW, turns out financial situation is going to be similar. Slightly more scholarship money at Case but I will have the ability to get private loans at Dartmouth (which as an international student I can't get from Case, and would then necessitate my parents to lend some money to me to help pay).

Any final thoughts?

 

[bearintraining]

Biased here because I chose Dartmouth over Case. I did not like the curriculum at Case and also that classes were not recorded, it seemed like it would be harder to have other time outside of school if you could not watch lectures. I've had a lot of flexibility with my schedule here and am really grateful for it. Sure it's in the woods, but there is a lot going on here, and if you're an active student, you really won't miss the city life distractions except for better food. That would be nice. Case's admission team was super nice though!

Curious if you can comment on what a typical week at Dartmouth is like. It seems that although Case is more rigid in its timeslots (i.e. required/semi-required activities generally 8-12 every day), Dartmouth may have more contact time. Would this be correct?

 

[M1member]

Curious if you can comment on what a typical week at Dartmouth is like. It seems that although Case is more rigid in its timeslots (i.e. required/semi-required activities generally 8-12 every day), Dartmouth may have more contact time. Would this be correct?

If it's only 4 hours per day for 5 days at Case, then yes, we do have probably 2-4 hours extra per week in the afternoons which would be labs or small groups. I guess it's balanced out by the fact that on quiz days, we do not have any class at all though, so it could be similar.

 

[bearintraining]

If it's only 4 hours per day for 5 days at Case, then yes, we do have probably 2-4 hours extra per week in the afternoons which would be labs or small groups. I guess it's balanced out by the fact that on quiz days, we do not have any class at all though, so it could be similar.

Can you remind me how the exams work again at DMS? I recall it being something like every 2 weeks in year 1 and every 3 weeks in year 2? Does this feel "stressful" or do you think it truly helps?

 

[beyoncepadthaii]

Aww bear im sorry this decision is so stressful for you right now! It seems like you'd be a great fit for Dartmouth with the older class...but I think you can't go wrong either way! (I'm on the waitlist at both so I guess I'm unbiased?) Mostly just wanted to post to say that I think whichever decision you make will be the right one. And I'm interested to see where you pick!

 

[stemingen]

Have you made the decision yet @bearintraining? If costs are about the same, I would recommend to compare the supporting environment in both programs for your future specialty pursuing. Either way, they are both fantastic programs. And I am sure you will do well no matter which you pick eventually. Best of luck!

 

[M1member]

Can you remind me how the exams work again at DMS? I recall it being something like every 2 weeks in year 1 and every 3 weeks in year 2? Does this feel "stressful" or do you think it truly helps?

It's about every 2 weeks in the fall, then it tapers off to every 3 weeks in the spring. It gets kind of monotonous/rough in the fall, but you get used to it.

 

[bearintraining]

It's about every 2 weeks in the fall, then it tapers off to every 3 weeks in the spring. It gets kind of monotonous/rough in the fall, but you get used to it.

Thanks - are they cumulative?

 

[M1member]

Thanks - are they cumulative?

No fortunately. The finals are, but they are much more high level questions.

 

[bearintraining]

Decided to Accept Case and decline Dartmouth.

 

[cherubb3]

Decided to Accept Case and decline Dartmouth.

It's a good thing you did your research early! Your decision wasn't so theoretical after all.