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C'mon guys, we expect civil discourse, especially in school specific threads
2019-2020 Chicago Med at Rosalind Franklin
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As far as I can tell this has been fairly civil?
DrStephennmnm
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It is. Most likely what happened was that someone got butthurt and reported a post to the moderator. Mod even probably thought it was civil as well but he has to post something
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Dude, if they're closing your application, that means you're rejected. For whatever reason, they just decided to use [overly] nuanced language to say it. I don't think it's fruitful to overanalyze your rejection letter. If you're rejected, you're not going to this school. It doesn't matter if they said, "neener neener big fat weiner" or "tootie tootie you're a bootie" or "my oh my oh you are ohio," or "We could not make a decision, so we have closed your file." The decision is the same and has the same result.
Be pissed that you were rejected. That's fine. But come on.
Be pissed that you were rejected. That's fine. But come on.
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LMAOI didn't think I'd be so polarizing. I thought people would appreciate someone telling them that maybe they're not victims. If I was up in arms over something and someone was like, "Hey wait a minute maybe this is a simple misunderstanding and your energy would be put to better use elsewhere," I'd at least take it into consideration lol.
You’re good for sure! I was just bored with this whole social distancing thing and enjoy these types of convos!
DopeAmine95
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With all due respect, I think I speak for myself and some others when I say that this isn't about being butthurt over getting rejected. This school wasn't particularly high on my list and I am happy with my cycle so far - I don't feel the need to get accepted to every school I apply to.
Some of us just want our money back. This is about RFU's admissions committee not appearing to do what we payed them to do, which is thoroughly review our applications (their secondary cost around 13 hours of scribing lol).
Of course we will move on, and this isn't a huge deal in the grand scheme of things. That said, it costs tons of money to apply to these schools, and many people are forced to pay for these pricey secondary fees by working minimum wage clinical jobs. In my opinion, it is understandable that some of us have little sympathy for the people crafting the email and felt the need to temporarily vent on this forum.
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With all due respect back, do you think every school that you applied to that received 10,000+ applications reviewed your secondary in depth? With all due respect, I don't.
With all due respect, this is overanalysis of a letter that says one thing: rejected. be pissed that you were rejected and paid $125 for your application. But let's not pretend that the wording of this letter changes the reality of medical school applications.
With all due respect, if it were my system, there would be no e-mail. There would be a centralized office, and you would look, and as you are rejected, each one would pop up "rejected" as your status is placed. But the AAMC has decided that each school has the right not only to charge you an exorbitant amount of money for a secondary (because in the long run, what is the difference between $125 and $100?) and has in no way centralized the acceptance and rejection process except in setting deadlines.
And of course, with all due respect, your anger and the anger of the applicants in this thread toward this inoffensively worded letter is misplaced. Be angry at the school for rejecting you, and be mad at the AAMC for forcing every school to try to come up with the least objectionable way of saying, "Sorry! You're rejected" to, in many cases, 10,000 applicants. I'm sorry that it stings, but I don't believe for one second that the anger that applicants are feeling truly stems from the wording of this e-mail. Perhaps the e-mail is making it easier for applicants to vent their frustration about the application process on SDN, which would actually be a positive thing.
Trust me: Not only did they start reviewing your application, but they also finished.
And just for kicks, let me just acknowledge that I graduated from this school and didn't particularly enjoy my experience. I'm no apologist for the school's shortcomings. But things are getting ridiculous.
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Do you perchance have any affiliation with Chicago Medical School?
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See the last line of the post that you quoted.
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Thank you, I missed that
DrStephennmnm
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Ummmmm @TheDataKing maybe I spoke too soon...
Couldn’t care less I was rejected. It’s March, the cycle is over. Have been rejected by many and accepted by few. I expect rejections. Somehow it’s impossible to believe we should be ok with schools tossing our apps because they couldn’t get to it or whatever their excuse is while still paying fees under an expectation we’re paying for a service undone.
It’s a very non-transparent and dishonest business. Defend it or cut it up how you will. If it doesn’t upset you, great. It clearly does for many others. Let people have their opinions without a compulsion to believe it’s your role to change it.
It’s a very non-transparent and dishonest business. Defend it or cut it up how you will. If it doesn’t upset you, great. It clearly does for many others. Let people have their opinions without a compulsion to believe it’s your role to change it.
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I'm going to say it one more time. Please keep this discussion professional everyone. I know many are upset with how RFU sent out rejections and that's understandable but there's no need to be unprofessional toward one another.
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Sounds like we agree completely: The system sucks. In an ideal world, everyone would apply to ten medical schools and the process would cost $500 and it would be done. But despite my generalized chagrin at my school as a whole, the issue of this one rejection letter seems overblown, and if one is going to request a refund from RFUMS, one should request a refund from every school that didn't interview them. I don't think targeting one school based on the wording of their rejection letter makes much sense.
DopeAmine95
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Look, I don't want to escalate things here. RFU seems to do well with their match list each year, and I have nothing against the school personally. Obviously there are other schools that don't look over all applications thoroughly, let alone over all applications at all. However, unlike the other schools, RFU either:
1) was inadvertently honest about not properly reviewing everyone's app
2) was blatantly honest about doing so
3) just worded their email extremely poorly
It seems like everyone on this thread has different interpretations. My interpretation was more along the lines of 1), and I felt that I had nothing to lose asking for a refund. However, I understand you and others seeing it differently. This rejection doesn't sting, as you say, and I wouldn't characterize myself as angry. I think I have been very level headed here. Regardless, my request was not granted and that is that. I think we are all on the same team here and should work to improve the admissions process for future cycles.
Good luck out there and be safe
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Absolutely. It sounds like we are in agreement that the process sucks. It also sounds like we are in agreement that RFU did not review your application too thoroughly. Unfortunately, I would argue that many other schools that rejected you and countless other applicants did not look at their applications thoroughly. This is not unique to RFUMS, and if you believe you were entitled to a refund from this school, I would suggest you request a refund from every other school that rejected you.
I expect you to work to change the system when you are an attending. You'll do great.
For anyone who did not actually receive these mails, and for people reading in the future, I want to make it clear that there was not one email, but three, with each subsequent mail saying something different from the one before. I'm including screenshots, with all identifying information blacked out. Read them for yourself and decide. Note that email #1 is incorrect when it says my file was incomplete, and this appears to be the case for others as well.
Email #1:
Email #2:
Email #3:
Email #1 shows that at least once during the admissions cycle (ie. when this email was sent), RFU's system was wrong about whose application was complete and whose wasn't. It's entirely possible that this was an isolated error that only occurred once. It's also possible that a number of applicants were completely overlooked because the system was mistaken about which applications were complete.
I found RFU's online application system to be buggy when I used it. Four days after I got email confirmation that I had submitted my application, I received another email telling me that there was still time to submit my application. When I called, the person I spoke to did not seem to understand the online application system well. I left a message with my admissions counselor, but never received a call back. More than a month later, I got an email telling me that my application was complete.
It's certainly plausible that there is nothing to see here, and everything is explained by honest mistakes. But given all the circumstances I've described, you can't be surprised that people are skeptical of whether their applications ever reached the review process at all.
Email #1:
Email #2:
Email #3:
Email #1 shows that at least once during the admissions cycle (ie. when this email was sent), RFU's system was wrong about whose application was complete and whose wasn't. It's entirely possible that this was an isolated error that only occurred once. It's also possible that a number of applicants were completely overlooked because the system was mistaken about which applications were complete.
I found RFU's online application system to be buggy when I used it. Four days after I got email confirmation that I had submitted my application, I received another email telling me that there was still time to submit my application. When I called, the person I spoke to did not seem to understand the online application system well. I left a message with my admissions counselor, but never received a call back. More than a month later, I got an email telling me that my application was complete.
It's certainly plausible that there is nothing to see here, and everything is explained by honest mistakes. But given all the circumstances I've described, you can't be surprised that people are skeptical of whether their applications ever reached the review process at all.
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It's certainly plausible that these inadvertent emails are a sign that our applications didn't reach the review process, but that's complete conjecture and there's no way of proving that.
While I'm frustrated at the process and outcome, it's an unspoken truth that many programs will not thoroughly review your application.
I don't think we should expect a refund. I do think we should publicize our frustrations (e.g. posting in a pre-med forum, calling their admissions office) so that things improve in the future. Future applicants should be aware of some of the dysfunction that exists.
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Absolutely. And in fact, I guarantee that Rosalind Franklin, like many other schools, did not thoroughly review all of the 10,000+ applications it received this year. Every person who complained about Rosalind Franklin's clumsy e-mails, particularly those who have been accepted to a medical school already, should quit wasting their time asking for refunds for their application and focus on changing the overall process of medical school application so that it sucks less for every single applicant in the future.
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SlipperyWhenWet
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I'm going to tell a story, so bear with me.
Let's say that you want to buy a house. You have your eyes on a couple of options, and fill out the apps for all of them, shelling out 125$ for each. All of these houses are in popular areas, and they get hundreds of apps a day. Your offer is accepted for one house, or maybe it's not. For all others, your application is rejected. But one rejection reads strangely-it sounds like they took your money, but didn't even look at your app. The normal person would be mad as hell, and demand a refund.
A similar process is going on here. The difference between the other schools who may not have read the app and Rosalind Franklin is that Rosalind Franklin slipped up, and actually said it. Personally, I'd write an email asking for a refund myself. It shouldn't be OK for med schools to do this-or they should be more transparent about whose apps they look at. I think many med students and doctors have a "Tough it out and change the system from the top", but I think that mentality encourages passivity.
Even if it's pointless, I'd say go ahead and send the email. Can't hurt. Might make ya feel better, though.
Let's say that you want to buy a house. You have your eyes on a couple of options, and fill out the apps for all of them, shelling out 125$ for each. All of these houses are in popular areas, and they get hundreds of apps a day. Your offer is accepted for one house, or maybe it's not. For all others, your application is rejected. But one rejection reads strangely-it sounds like they took your money, but didn't even look at your app. The normal person would be mad as hell, and demand a refund.
A similar process is going on here. The difference between the other schools who may not have read the app and Rosalind Franklin is that Rosalind Franklin slipped up, and actually said it. Personally, I'd write an email asking for a refund myself. It shouldn't be OK for med schools to do this-or they should be more transparent about whose apps they look at. I think many med students and doctors have a "Tough it out and change the system from the top", but I think that mentality encourages passivity.
Even if it's pointless, I'd say go ahead and send the email. Can't hurt. Might make ya feel better, though.
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I'm encouraging activity when it actually matters. Sending an e-mail to this one medical school requesting a refund because of the wording of an e-mail does little but overburden the administrators who are working tirelessly to actually get the job of both admin for application review and admin for interview setup done. You're bothering someone with as little decision-making power as you have with extra work that ultimately serves no purpose. Because I'm going to bet that you sent that e-mail to [email protected] or whatever their admissions address is.
And while your metaphor wasn't meant to be perfect, I have serious issue with comparing a house sale, in which high volume means 15 applications, to medical school applications, where normal volume is 10,000 applications for RFUMS and many schools. One person could potentially look at 15 applications for housing (or to medical school for that matter) in detail, combing over the finances and the profile and the pets and whatever else, and could reasonably render a decision based on that information. But ultimately, you're not applying with the expectation that you're definitely going to get the house. You're applying with the expectation that there is a chance that your application will be accepted presuming you are the best candidate.
And that's what medical school applications are. You're competing with all the other people who want to go to medical school, many of them highly qualified just based on numbers alone, to have a chance.
So then the question becomes this: How does someone decides who gets a spot? Does that person who applied with a 475 (or whatever scale the kids are using for their MCAT scores these days . . .) and a 2.7 get their entire application looked at holistically necessarily? Well, the letters from all the other medical schools say that they looked at applications and got a lot of qualified applicants and unfortunately had to reject your application. You know, that form letter that they sent to every other person who didn't get an interview. In other words, more meaningless drivel. And Rosalind Franklin sends an e-mail, similarly, to everyone who did not receive an interview this season that says they "could not come to a final decision and are closing your file."
In other words, the wording of that letter has no true meaning. I'd read far more into the fact that it's a form letter sent to thousands of other applicants. That means that no, Rosalind Franklin, along with any other medical school that sends a form-letter for rejection (which is all of them besides the ones that literally send no correspondence if you don't get an interview), did not review every application with a fine-toothed comb because that is literally impossible with the amount of resources available to a medical school. And if you don't think they should review the guy's application who has a 2.7 and a 475, then your application is not necessarily deserving of marked scrutiny.
So what's the point of all this? I'm not telling you to be passive. I'm telling you to act in a way that will actually make change. Here's what you can do now:
1. Write a letter to the AAMC explaining your frustration with the medical school application system and how utterly messed up it is that every school charges an exorbitant amount of money for medical school applications locking all but the upper middle class and those poor enough to qualify for a ton of financial aid to attend.
2. Write a letter to your senator, your congressperson, the president, or any political figure you can think of asking for change to this process and for better financing options for medical school
3. Support your fellow applicants, particularly those with zero acceptances, with sympathy. They can't ask for their money back because honestly, many of them will probably apply again and because of this messed up system, if they're marked as having stepped out of line, they probably will be blacklisted. Of course, if you tell me you're going to find someone on SDN at your school who wasn't accepted and give them that refund instead of keeping it for yourself, then go ahead as I respect that selfless urge to help.
And beyond what you can do now, when you're an attending, DO change the system from the inside. That is the true way to make change - recognize inequality and injustice as you go through the process and subsequently fix it when you finally have the power.
DrStephennmnm
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No one is going to go through all that trouble due to a rejection from a low tiered school. Sending an email asking for a refund is much simpler. And I hate to break it to you but I have no pity for "bothering" admissions staff whatsoever by this ordeal. You know why? Because it is their JOB to go through applications (and answer questions applicants have, like maybe when they ask for a refund), that means they get paid $$$$ to do that and are not just volunteering. If this is taking them extra time, well at least they learned for the next application cycle not to write idiotic emails.
with your logic, maybe I just shouldn't go to the ER after I fall down and break my arm because I don't want to "bother" the nurses/doctor from doing their job.
It's one thing being respectful, but what you are recommending is to not contact the people in charge of admissions (and your sup app fee) as it might "bother" them and take time away from them
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I'd recommend you "bother" them if you're going to ask them to do part of their job. But I guarantee you the person who reviewed your application, rejected you, and wrote the e-mail people are objecting to is not looking at the petty e-mail about a refund for an application fee.
I'd recommend that you receive medical care after breaking your arm, but I'd also recommend you not request a prescription for pain medication from the hospital chaplain as that's not his job.
DrStephennmnm
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So hypothetically if an applicant wanted to request a refund from a school (for whatever reason, be it warranted or unwarranted), who would you recommend they contact?
The amount of effort you spent writing this post takes the same amount of effort as writing a congressman, and it would probably have been more fruitful to us all in one way or another. I still don't think the school did anything wrong except, at most, mistakenly sent out a mass-email to the wrong recipients that their applications were incomplete when in fact they were complete. As far as the rejection email goes, yes it is oddly worded, but it does not out-right say that applications were simply ignored.
I stand by what I said in my first post. Applicants should try to apply to more schools and apply earlier if they want to get into medical school. No it is not a perfect system, but this is the reality. For those who want to get into medical school, they must do it under this current system. I'm not saying that people should not try to change this system. I totally agree that this system is not ideal but trying to change it and trying to get into medical school are two different things.
I'll take a stab because I'm bored from social distancing and am enjoying this exchange lol. I personally think you have the right idea on who to contact, but it is why you want to ask for a refund that is the area of debate. If you could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they ignored your application flat out, I might tend to agree with you, although when you submit your secondary app and pay the fee is there any disclaimer or any legally binding statement that states that your application has to be reviewed at all? Not saying there isn't, but IF there is not, your case is dead in the water my friend.
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I'm not going to answer this question out of context, but in the context of this discussion, in which we're talking about requesting a refund because of a perception that an application was not reviewed because of a form letter, literally no one.
DrStephennmnm
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I never said there was. The only reason I made any response at all was because the RFU alumni said not to contact admissions at all using the reasoning that it might take time away from them. If you've had any job in administration, you know that sometimes you are going to get stupid questions, but that doesn't mean you tell people not to ask you that because that is your job to answer questions and is what comes with the job lol.
I totally agree. People asking questions, stupid or not, is a fact of life. I honestly think if I saw applicants on here acknowledging that they are asking for a refund on shaky grounds just for the sake of asking, I would not have thought anything of it. After all, asking doesn't hurt. What struck me was the wave of full outrage and anger and people thinking that they have such iron-clad cases against RFU and demonizing them. lol. I found it a tad too ridiculous to remain silent.
DrStephennmnm
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Here's the thing, I gather that you have at least one acceptance to a med school, same goes for me. But imagine if you didn't, and were desperately hoping for an interview. Then you get that rejection email from RFU. It's already bad enough you got rejected, but the way they worded their email just sent an additional layer of sting as it makes it sound like they haven't reviewed it, or that they just didn't get to it. If you've noticed, most schools are very careful with how they word their rejection letters because they understand the impact that these letters may have. Again, this is not about you, me, or the doc who went to RFU. It's about those who are having a crap cycle and received an insensitive email from RFU. We all know what happens to our apps behind closed doors, but again, mentioning that in a rejection email is uncalled for.
premed-1326
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From what i’ve read on here about other schools, in the past when people receive an email saying their file was not complete they respond referencing the email they got previously (in the beginning of the year) stating their file was complete and ask for a refund. I think this would be reasonable to do here as well as a quote from their website saying they will review all applications. But if they say no we won’t refund you to this email then you’re kind of SOL.
I applied to about 20 schools, one interview, and currently on the wait list for the one school I interviewed at, so I don't have to imagine lol.
Look. I'm at a point in life where I've been "stung" many times. After a while you tend to just learn how to power through it and focus on what matters. I didn't have the most ideal upbringing. I had to work hard in high school to earn money and didn't focus on my studies enough. Literally no universities accepted me out of high school. None of them believed in me, but I did. I went to a community college for 2 semesters and transferred to a university and ended up graduating Summa with honors. I didn't go to one single college party in my four years in undergrad. I was studying constantly because I never wanted to be told no again. Well, here I am after being told no twice with a chance of being told no a third time. At this point I do not care how they tell me. Being told nicely or being told to the point doesn't change my situation. All I can do is keep trying to do everything in my power to convey to these schools that I am capable, dedicated, and driven as well as applying early and widely to increase my chances. That's it. It's on me like it always has been.
DrStephennmnm
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Everyone has ups and downs in life. Unfortunately for you it seems like some things were out of your control. However, an email that can be interpreted as "We rejected you because we have not reached a final decision because we didn't read your app because you applied too late" is completely preventable. You can deal with that, good for you. But on a general scale, I can empathize and see why some people on here may be pissed from the email RFU sent.
And FYI, as someone with multiple A's and friends who are just as competitive if not more so that myself who have no A's, I can honestly say this process is not entirely on you at all. A great deal of
This process is luck unfortunately, as the people who are reading your app may have biases. Maybe they don't like high stat apps because they assume they are robots. Maybe they don't like applicants who are very focused on research. Getting rejected is definitely not entirely on you at all
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I feel you, man. I applied three times myself, and every time you get rejected, it stings.
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Any WL movement?
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On RFs website, they claim that the average GPA was 3.45 and MCAT was 505 for the class of 2019. MSARs numbers are vastly different with a GPA of 3.70 and an MCAT of 512.
Could someone explain this discrepancy to me? What is the actual average GPA and MCAT for this school?
Here's what I'm referencing: Class Profile: Chicago Medical School
Could someone explain this discrepancy to me? What is the actual average GPA and MCAT for this school?
Here's what I'm referencing: Class Profile: Chicago Medical School
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Thanks for your explanation! I checked MSAR for the accepted students and while the MCAT is lower at a 510, the GPA is still a 3.70. I'll assume MSAR is more accurate and go with that.
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is the alternate list the same as a waitlist?
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mustbecomedoctor
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Anyone know the timeline for financial aid packages here?
whalewhalewhalez
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For those of you that have been accepted - did you see any changes on the RFU Connect Portal? I know I'm probably being super paranoid but I just saw some correspondence with another university in my spam and I'm worried that if an email was sent it may have been auto-deleted.
I went through the threads from previous application cycles a few months back to try and figure this out, and it seemed like there was a lot of movement in around May-July if I remember correctly. Also, I believe that by April 30th all students holding multiple spots at different schools have to narrow their choice down to one only, so that should open up some spots.
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Have any students who've elected to go elsewhere had luck with withdrawing from this school? I emailed them but haven't gotten a reply and was unable to find something to click on in the admissions portal. In any case, I hope my seat goes to someone here on the waitlist!
Dr.Ján.ītor_MD
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I wouldn’t get your hopes up, but tomorrow is what should start the process
where is that said?
Human_Veterinarian
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It's when people start narrowing their choices down to 3.
Congrats!! When were you waitlisted? I havent heard anything since the Dec email.
But good to know that theres some movement
