2011-2012 Washington University in St. Louis Application Thread

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LSLGPK said:
I would be really careful about trusting the cheerleading of people who are in student government such as Condor87.

It is cutt-throat. Don't fool yourself. Use some common sense. If you put the highest MCAT scores together in a tiered grading system, you better believe it. I cannot tell you how disillusioned and stained by an apathetic malaise the people who don't do well in the grading scheme are. And for some of the arrogant, self-righteous fellow students who may read this, it isn't just me. You guys just don't bother to look up from your books to give a damn.

Before I came to Wash U, I was happy and had some degree of confidence that I wasn't stupid. I am no longer happy. It is a nasty and vicious place. One small group leader for the behavioral sciences portion last block said to my reply to a question of his that I wasn't sure, "well... monkey see monkey do". I am the bottom of my class. I have no confidence. I care a great deal about people but have little hope of becoming what I set out to be.

I am desperate to escape this place. You have no idea how stressed and how annoyed, disgusted, angered some of us are with each other. In team based learning sessions, a lot of us just want to shut up the know it alls who nitpick over the nuances of a multiple choice question that counts for maybe at the most 0.25% of their grade. Look at our last TBL session recording if you don't believe me about the nitpicking or the annoyance with it.

The POM ethics sessions are really the highlight, the gem of why this place is horrible. On one hand, you have the vast majority of students who really couldn't care to legitimately think about the questions that are posed. Regurgitate the answer that is prescribed by popular opinion or some guideline board. On the other hand, you have people leading the discussions who are pompous and arrogant and just shut people down/ allow people to be ganged up on without any support of differing opinion.

The lack of compassion for each other and for patients (I could list a lot of quite stunning examples), ethical considerations (Not just in the classroom), and being able to just fulfill your expectations of human decency really make me sick with this place. Please consider coming here carefully. Not everything comes down to U.S. news rankings, or average MCAT/GPA, or total NIH funding.
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I'm not sure how to respond to the latest LSLGPK post, but I do feel obliged to do so, largely to help prevent any new readers from thinking that a lack of a reply could imply that the students at WashU have conceded this argument and thrown up the white flag.

Most readers (I hope) realize a few things if they have kept up with the discussions on this forum:

(1) Medical students are very, very busy people. So busy that the fact that I take the time to reply to LSLGPK's allegations should speak for itself.

(2) If someone doesn't like where they are, change is always possible. Transferring between medical schools is actually possible. I sincerely don't wish anything negative on LSLGPK. I hope he/she achieves everything he/she wants, I really do. That said, it's clear you dislike this place so much, and perhaps you would be happier completing your 3rd and 4th years of medical school at another institution? To reiterate, I'm not asking you to leave. I'm asking, would you not prefer to be elsewhere for the next two years of your life if what you've described above is true? That's not rhetorical, I honestly wonder what your thoughts are on the idea of transferring.

(3) Obviously, every applicant who interviewed at WashU saw the school and hopefully talked to a few students. I'd like to think you got a positive view of our institution. If you want to talk to more students to get more opinions and perspectives, I'd be happy to put you in touch with them. Seriously, message me the description of someone you'd like to hear from and I'll do my best. Want to know what non-science majors think of WashU? Want to know what older students coming from full-time work think of WashU? Want to know what very religious people think of WashU? Want to know what hippies think of WashU? This is a legitimate offer.

(4) LSLGPK, for better or worse, deleted his/her most egregious post on 01-09-2012 (it was originally written 12-30-2011, 07:56 PM). Take that for what it's worth...

(5) Bottomline: WashU is awesome. Are there things I'd like to change? Yes, for sure (such as the fact that we use Microsoft Exchange for our email...lame). Do I think any of the words vicious/cut-throat/mean/rude/uncompassionate apply to WashU? Not a prayer.
 
The reason I deleted a post was that I was afraid at the time, and rightfully so as I later found out, of retribution.

Anyhow, transfer really not a serious option. Very few schools accept transfers in the top 20. Trust me, I looked into it. Yale and Baylor, that's about it. And the spots per year fluctuate from about zero to one.

As far as enough Step I prep time... I think we all know the story of Dr. Winters coming in and announcing during one of your classes last year during the time before boards that she was out of a sleep medication. So take that for what it's worth...

Wash U, like any institution has its weaknesses. And much like people who think they are important or have prestige, institutions can tend to ignore their own faults. By selecting so much for test taking abilities and academic prowess, I believe we truly have lost out on something intangible that creates great future healers, mentors, and leaders. Wash U needs to change much more than the email client and you know that.
 
Cool, something substantive to comment on.

LSLGPK said:
The reason I deleted a post was that I was afraid at the time, and rightfully so as I later found out, of retribution.
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Sorry to hear, this shouldn't get more personal (especially than it already is).

LSLGPK said:
Anyhow, transfer really not a serious option. Very few schools accept transfers in the top 20. Trust me, I looked into it. Yale and Baylor, that's about it. And the spots per year fluctuate from about zero to one.
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I still wouldn't rule out trying if it would make such a big difference, as you imply it would. Also, does it have to be top 20? There are lots of good medical schools, and from what you've said I'd have thought you'd be willing to go to NYU, Tufts, USC, etc... to get away from such a toxic environment. Just my thinking.

LSLGPK said:
As far as enough Step I prep time... I think we all know the story of Dr. Winters coming in and announcing during one of your classes last year during the time before boards that she was out of a sleep medication. So take that for what it's worth...
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I'm pretty sure she said that as hyperbole, but we can agree to disagree. I will provide the following link (and there are many other threads on the same subject):

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=102875&page=8

Summary = WashU Step 1 average has been 237-238 for the past 2-3 years based on what we've been told. This puts us in the top 5-10 schools in the country, and this is ~87th percentile I think... (no school has Step 1 %-ile near their MCAT %-ile, just doesn't happen that way). The amount of time we have is fine. If you want >240, work on Step 1 prep during second year itself. Many people buy USMLEworld in February and do a few questions every day while reading First Aid as well.

LSLGPK said:
Wash U, like any institution has its weaknesses. And much like people who think they are important or have prestige, institutions can tend to ignore their own faults. By selecting so much for test taking abilities and academic prowess, I believe we truly have lost out on something intangible that creates great future healers, mentors, and leaders. Wash U needs to change much more than the email client and you know that.
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Sure there are other things I'd change. St. Louis weather is pretty lame compared to California weather. But I bet most students would say "IT is the first thing I'd change" - and that paints a very different picture than what you're describing...
 
I don't view this as personal at all. And I'm sorry that you do, despite your efforts to conceal it. Methinks thou doth protest too much. 😛 I worked hard to get here and I've worked hard to survive here. Transferring to me is really not an option. I have and will survive what has been the worst period in my life thus far. In terms of Step I, we actually don't do that significantly better than our peers despite the grading system. I believe Vanderbilt may take top prize in that category actually.

The main issue here is not Step I though. There are definitely qualities, such as compassion, empathy, integrity, motivations that cannot be quantified per se but are important. The fact that the first thing you suggested was transferring, without bothering to try to even help in any way, demonstrates what I'm talking about. Trying to discredit and minimize my concerns instead of actually addressing the situation many of us are in shows how we as a community don't care about each other genuinely. You probably don't know what it feels like to not be able to even hope for a high pass in virtually all of your classes. Have you stopped to take care of people around you who are depressed? It is easy to act compassionate when you are graded for it. How about when nobody is watching and there are no points or praise to be won? I believe the culture, structure, and selection process of Wash U breeds some negative qualities that should not be ignored.
 
As as someone who was admitted to WashU in January, this thread is bumming me out. I had a really good impression of the school when I visited last fall. In particular, I enjoyed spending time with students before and during my interview day.

LSLGPK, I'm really sorry that you're so unhappy at WashU and I hope that you won't take the fact that you currently feel miserable there as a sign that you can't accomplish everything you want to achieve as a future physician. I had a similar attitude toward my undergraduate institution so I can definitely sympathize with how you feel--if you have not done so already, I really hope that you will seek out help with managing your stress and unhappiness. Also, if you haven't yet reached your clinical years, perhaps you will be able to find the entire experience more rewarding once you hit the wards and get out of the more traditional academic environment of M1/M2? You may still feel like you're surrounded by gunners, but maybe working with patients will make things more bearable.
 
LSLGPK said:
I don't view this as personal at all. And I'm sorry that you do, despite your efforts to conceal it. Methinks thou doth protest too much. 😛 I worked hard to get here and I've worked hard to survive here. Transferring to me is really not an option. I have and will survive what has been the worst period in my life thus far. In terms of Step I, we actually don't do that significantly better than our peers despite the grading system. I believe Vanderbilt may take top prize in that category actually.
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I think we can put the Step 1 arguments to rest, as you mention below. There are people who get 265 and there are people who get 225. Different people are different, for many reasons.

LSLGPK said:
The main issue here is not Step I though. There are definitely qualities, such as compassion, empathy, integrity, motivations that cannot be quantified per se but are important. The fact that the first thing you suggested was transferring, without bothering to try to even help in any way, demonstrates what I'm talking about. Trying to discredit and minimize my concerns instead of actually addressing the situation many of us are in shows how we as a community don't care about each other genuinely. You probably don't know what it feels like to not be able to even hope for a high pass in virtually all of your classes. Have you stopped to take care of people around you who are depressed? It is easy to act compassionate when you are graded for it. How about when nobody is watching and there are no points or praise to be won? I believe the culture, structure, and selection process of Wash U breeds some negative qualities that should not be ignored.
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Here is my ungraded compassion speaking: when I first read your initial posts, my heart sank. No joke. I've thoroughly loved my time at WashU and, without a doubt, I had hoped everyone of my peers had enjoyed WashU as much as I have. Some people have their ups and downs, but reading your posts made me angry, not at you, but that this happened to you.

Stepping back, however, I do know almost all members of my class relatively well. And I also know 25+ members of your class well-enough to be very surprised to hear you assign such negative qualities to such a large portion of your class. I'll never deny that every class has a few bad apples, but for there to be more than 1-2 'cruel' people is just a real shock to my system. Enough of a shock that I begin to doubt your assessment of people. I'm open to being proven wrong, but I do suspect some of what you view as bad behavior I might actually not disapprove of. I hate the expression 'agree to disagree', but I just can't imagine the people we associate with everyday being so evil.

I mentioned transferring because I thought it could actually be a solution that totally escaped your consideration. From the post above, it seems you'd be open to direct help, which I would actually be happy to provide. If you want a study coach for Step 1, you've got one in me. I'd be happy to meet with you to tell you how I prepared for it, how I scored, and what I'd change if I redid the whole thing. I'd also be willing to do what I can to help you with your remaining second year classes, but other than 'study a lot' there's not a ton of advice for medical school courses themselves. If there are other things another person outside of your class or I can do to help you, giving specifics would be awesome. I'm not sure what I can provide other than a study coach or just a friend to have coffee with...

I think this topic on this thread has reached its end, though. People can read what you've said and read what I've said and take away what they please. I still encourage everyone to come to WashU revisit and interact with as many different students as possible to get the best first-hand sense of our school. If you aren't happy here during revisit, don't come, no hard feelings. If you think you'll be happy here, I think you most likely will.
 
condor87 said:
I think we can put the Step 1 arguments to rest, as you mention below. There are people who get 265 and there are people who get 225. Different people are different, for many reasons.



Here is my ungraded compassion speaking: when I first read your initial posts, my heart sank. No joke. I've thoroughly loved my time at WashU and, without a doubt, I had hoped everyone of my peers had enjoyed WashU as much as I have. Some people have their ups and downs, but reading your posts made me angry, not at you, but that this happened to you.

Stepping back, however, I do know almost all members of my class relatively well. And I also know 25+ members of your class well-enough to be very surprised to hear you assign such negative qualities to such a large portion of your class. I'll never deny that every class has a few bad apples, but for there to be more than 1-2 'cruel' people is just a real shock to my system. Enough of a shock that I begin to doubt your assessment of people. I'm open to being proven wrong, but I do suspect some of what you view as bad behavior I might actually not disapprove of. I hate the expression 'agree to disagree', but I just can't imagine the people we associate with everyday being so evil.

I mentioned transferring because I thought it could actually be a solution that totally escaped your consideration. From the post above, it seems you'd be open to direct help, which I would actually be happy to provide. If you want a study coach for Step 1, you've got one in me. I'd be happy to meet with you to tell you how I prepared for it, how I scored, and what I'd change if I redid the whole thing. I'd also be willing to do what I can to help you with your remaining second year classes, but other than 'study a lot' there's not a ton of advice for medical school courses themselves. If there are other things another person outside of your class or I can do to help you, giving specifics would be awesome. I'm not sure what I can provide other than a study coach or just a friend to have coffee with...

I think this topic on this thread has reached its end, though. People can read what you've said and read what I've said and take away what they please. I still encourage everyone to come to WashU revisit and interact with as many different students as possible to get the best first-hand sense of our school. If you aren't happy here during revisit, don't come, no hard feelings. If you think you'll be happy here, I think you most likely will.
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Well said without antagonizing the OP.:thumb up:
 
HereIgo2011 said:
Well said without antagonizing the OP.:thumb up:
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I can't agree more.

condor87 said:
(3) Obviously, every applicant who interviewed at WashU saw the school and hopefully talked to a few students. I'd like to think you got a positive view of our institution. If you want to talk to more students to get more opinions and perspectives, I'd be happy to put you in touch with them. Seriously, message me the description of someone you'd like to hear from and I'll do my best. Want to know what non-science majors think of WashU? Want to know what older students coming from full-time work think of WashU? Want to know what very religious people think of WashU? Want to know what hippies think of WashU? This is a legitimate offer.
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I can also offer this. I'm happy to talk to anyone about WashU - pros and cons, and I know most of my classmates are as well. As those of you who interviewed hopefully saw at the pizza parties, we love talking about our experiences here with prospective students. Any questions, we'd be happy to answer.

To elaborate a bit more on the whole situation, LSLGPK, I feel really bad that you feel this way about WashU. I can't imagine having gone through almost 2 years of medical school in a place I hate. Medical school is bad enough with the sheer amount of material to learn, but for me, being at WashU makes it all OK. I guess I have a hard time seeing your perspective, but we can agree to disagree. I personally think the faculty and student body are full of awesome, nice people. I don't think the class is cut-throat. Sure, people care about their grades, but I think most people are willing to help other people out. At least that's the experience I've had.

The main point I'm trying to make here is that not everyone feels the same way LSLGPK does about WashU. I've said it once and I'll say it a million times. I can't imagine being as happy as I am here anywhere else.

And that's what really matters. The one piece of advice that stuck with me through my application and that I've tried to pass on to all the applicants I've met is to go to school where you're going to be happy. Medical school is not just a means to an end. It's 4 years of your life - your twenties for most of us, and going to a top whatever school just for the name when you don't like the people there will make you absolutely miserable. It's so not worth it.
 
Yikes, quite a startling view of WashU! I thought everyone seemed really happy when I interviewed, but I don't doubt that there exist unhappy med students, regardless of which school we're talking about. A friend of mine, a current MS4, did mention that he didn't like the lack of P/F in the 2nd year, but I imagine this varies depending on whom you ask.

I do have a question concerning the 2nd year, if any current students are still reading this. I understand that there is no P/F, but what about the curve? Is there a preset cut-off of some absolute score to get each grade, or is there an actual curve (e.g., the top 30% gets honors). I am hoping for the former, because I think it would probably reduce the competition somewhat (since everyone can technically do well, and it is then advantageous to help each other). Maybe this depends on the class, I don't know. I also apologize if this has been mentioned earlier.

Also, on an unrelated note, have any accepted students received a financial aid package yet? Do we know when to expect it?
 
Well, let me explain why it seems like everyone's happy. First of all, a lot of people that I know are quite stressed but hide it. Another thing is sample bias. You don't see the unhappy people because a lot of them are isolated and depressed, not going to lectures, holed up in their apartments etc.

This Condor87 person and ksmi117 are tied in with the student government or administrative efforts for recruitment. There is no fear of speaking positively about the school. The opposite is not true. Think of it this way, one unhappy student, perhaps stupid enough to speak up, represents quite a few more that are not speaking up.

There is no actual curve. The difficulty of the tests are made to create a stratification though. I'm sure people will cherry pick courses and say that hey, X percentage got honors in this particular course etc. Trust me, there's stratification. If there wasn't, the would defeat the entire purpose of a H/HP/P/F grading system. And yes, second year grades do matter in a school that doesn't have P/F second year and ranks you into top, middle, and bottom thirds. Say goodbye to your dreams if you score in the bottom third. Don't trust people making vague appeals to brand name saving you. It really isn't true. If you're in the bottom third, you're going to be "highly encouraged" to consider other fields. In fact, if you really analyze the match list, we for some reason don't send relatively as many people in certain competitive fields. Chronicidal did a statistical analysis showing weakness on the surgical side in this thread about two months back. To summarize, we are in the middle of the pack for ortho matches amongst peer say "top 10 schools", really weak in plastics/neurosurgery. Applies to derm and optho as well. Relatively fewer numbers compared to similar tier schools.

People may also talk competition and then say "well before the test, we share this and that". Well no, we really don't. Look at the details. Last block, wusmworks, a shared notetaking service that was voluntary, released its notes about two days before tests to non-members. Impossible to get through in time. Other people take really extensive notes, and we know it, but don't share it. The stuff that gets shared most often is just a powerpoint or bulletpoint list in the few days before a test. If you have a P/F system, I really do think people have less qualms about helping each other, even if they view it as freeloading. This is not just conjecture. This has been shown in inter-institutional studies by Mayo Medical School on the effects of P/F vs. tiered grading on stress levels, depression, and class cohesion. Look it up in pubmed.
 
LSLGPK said:
Well, let me explain why it seems like everyone's happy. First of all, a lot of people that I know are quite stressed but hide it. Another thing is sample bias. You don't see the unhappy people because a lot of them are isolated and depressed, not going to lectures, holed up in their apartments etc.

This Condor87 person and ksmi117 are tied in with the student government or administrative efforts for recruitment. There is no fear of speaking positively about the school. The opposite is not true. Think of it this way, one unhappy student, perhaps stupid enough to speak up, represents quite a few more that are not speaking up.

There is no actual curve. The difficulty of the tests are made to create a stratification though. I'm sure people will cherry pick courses and say that hey, X percentage got honors in this particular course etc. Trust me, there's stratification. If there wasn't, the would defeat the entire purpose of a H/HP/P/F grading system. And yes, second year grades do matter in a school that doesn't have P/F second year and ranks you into top, middle, and bottom thirds. Say goodbye to your dreams if you score in the bottom third. Don't trust people making vague appeals to brand name saving you. It really isn't true. If you're in the bottom third, you're going to be "highly encouraged" to consider other fields. In fact, if you really analyze the match list, we for some reason don't send relatively as many people in certain competitive fields. Chronicidal did a statistical analysis showing weakness on the surgical side in this thread about two months back. To summarize, we are in the middle of the pack for ortho matches amongst peer say "top 10 schools", really weak in plastics/neurosurgery. Applies to derm and optho as well. Relatively fewer numbers compared to similar tier schools.

People may also talk competition and then say "well before the test, we share this and that". Well no, we really don't. Look at the details. Last block, wusmworks, a shared notetaking service that was voluntary, released its notes about two days before tests to non-members. Impossible to get through in time. Other people take really extensive notes, and we know it, but don't share it. The stuff that gets shared most often is just a powerpoint or bulletpoint list in the few days before a test. If you have a P/F system, I really do think people have less qualms about helping each other, even if they view it as freeloading. This is not just conjecture. This has been shown in inter-institutional studies by Mayo Medical School on the effects of P/F vs. tiered grading on stress levels, depression, and class cohesion. Look it up in pubmed.
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Don't med students have to be evaluated in some way or another anyway? I've heard that 3rd year rotations tend to have more subjective grading. That actually scares me a bit more than grades from test-taking... though I admit the 2nd year H/HP/P/F system does seem to cause a lot of unneeded stress. But I imagine that avoiding evaluation and competition altogether is probably impossible. Of course, I'm still an undergrad, and I have no idea what it's really like to be a med student.
 
Yes, you're right that students have to be evaluated. But think of it this way, we're the only top ten school that has a tiered grading system. UPenn has H/P/F for one of its modules I believe. Evaluating based on clinical performance seems to be a more salient measure. Emotional intelligence, clinical skills, common sense judgment are more important than your test taking abilities or ability to memorize massive amounts of information when it comes to taking care of people. If you look at the evaluation forms for our third year rotations, it's actually quite specific and breaks down competencies such as clinical knowledge, interactions etc. Also, if you're really concerned about a fair, statistical measure of preclinical knowledge, I believe the USMLE Step 1 is a better measure because it is standardized between institutions and is a comprehensive examination. What is the point of having an additional measure of preclinical knowledge that just fosters stress and diminishes class cohesion? I don't believe grades increase motivation. In fact, I believe they decrease it. If you compare us to peer institutions, I don't think you could make the case that we're more motivated or competent than our fellow medical students at other schools. Simple psychology explains why grades can decrease motivation. Let's say you don't do well on one set of exams and make up your mind to try harder. Well let's say that the next block is significantly harder intrinsically, and you don't do well on that next set of exams. Let's say that happens again. It's a continual cycle of negative reinforcement that creates a situation of learned helplessness. You feel that you are stupid and cannot score well no matter how hard you try. And it becomes your reality. It is an incredibly depressing feeling to be afraid to say anything because you have no self-confidence anymore.
 
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Wow, its pretty surprising to read all of your posts LSLGPK. Up until now I had heard only good things about WashU, and in fact with very few exceptions, only good things about any medical school. To be clear, I'm glad you're sharing this - although of course I'm sorry that things aren't working out for you the way you had planned.

However, I don't exactly understand your complaint. Medical school is hard and there are lots of people smarter than me in the world, I'm with you up to that point. But why does that affect your self confidence? Even if some of those smart people are jerks, can't you just ignore or avoid them? And perhaps more importantly, I'm suspicious of the claim that ending up in the bottom 3rd of your class will prevent you from getting into almost any specialty (maybe some of the most competitive, and certainly specific programs even in less competitive fields).

Lastly, you allege that some of the current WashU students on this thread answering our questions, and yes pumping the school up a bit, are agents of the university. This seems far fetched. What motivation could they have for lying about their experiences? Even the claim that unhappy students face some sort of pressure not to be open seems unlikely, although I guess a bit more plausible.
 
I never said they were lying. But you have to understand that the incentives and disincentives for either advocating or warning are completely different. And I do know who both of them are. One is on student government. The other is tied in with administrative efforts for recruitment.

Medical school is hard. Yes, that is true. The grading system, ranking system, who your peers are, the culture differs between institutions obviously. If you start failing in a graded system, especially early on in preclinical years, it becomes a really negative cycle that self reinforces. If you peers don't genuinely care for each other and are just friends when it comes time to party and drink, well it just compounds the problem.

Regarding rank and matching, what you have in parentheses is what I'm saying. I never said it prevents you from getting into "almost any specialty" just like I never said Condor87 and KSMI117 were lying. I am just saying their views may not represent what a lot of people actually feel. But it's four years of your life. Make it five if you don't match and can't scramble, which happens here more often than people care to admit.
 
Its true that you didn't explicitly accuse them of lying, but it would be hard to miss the implications of dishonesty that you've made repeatedly.

"But you have to understand that the incentives and disincentives for either advocating or warning are completely different."

I don't understand. Can you explain the incentives to me? If its not something you feel open to talking about here, then feel free to PM me.
 
LSLGPK said:
I never said they were lying. But you have to understand that the incentives and disincentives for either advocating or warning are completely different. And I do know who both of them are. One is on student government. The other is tied in with administrative efforts for recruitment.
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I'm not sure which one of these is supposed to apply to me, because neither do. I helped run a few pizza parties last year, that's as far as my ties with the recruitment process go. I have no fear of saying what I actually think about the school. And I do say what I actually think. I obviously know that there are people that are unhappy here, but there are people unhappy everywhere. And we all get stressed at times. I think the environment here is very supportive and I love it. I'm sorry you don't feel the same way. It makes me really sad.
 
LSLGPK said:
I never said they were lying. But you have to understand that the incentives and disincentives for either advocating or warning are completely different. And I do know who both of them are. One is on student government. The other is tied in with administrative efforts for recruitment.
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ksmi117 said:
I'm not sure which one of these is supposed to apply to me, because neither do. ... I think the environment here is very supportive and I love it. I'm sorry you don't feel the same way. It makes me really sad.
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I was literally just writing the same thing. I've never held a voluntary or elected student government position at WashU, and I certainly went to fewer than 10 applicant pizza parties in my time here, so I can hardly be called a 'recruiter'.

LSLGPK said:
Medical school is hard. Yes, that is true. The grading system, ranking system, who your peers are, the culture differs between institutions obviously. If you start failing in a graded system, especially early on in preclinical years, it becomes a really negative cycle that self reinforces. If you peers don't genuinely care for each other and are just friends when it comes time to party and drink, well it just compounds the problem.

Regarding rank and matching, what you have in parentheses is what I'm saying. I never said it prevents you from getting into "almost any specialty" just like I never said Condor87 and KSMI117 were lying. I am just saying their views may not represent what a lot of people actually feel. But it's four years of your life. Make it five if you don't match and can't scramble, which happens here more often than people care to admit.
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First of all, it's less than 1 week to Match Day! We'll all be able to comment on the latest results soon enough. Regarding scrambling, I know quite a lot about the match data here at WashU, as I am privy to some non-public information that I'm not allowed to share. What I can say has been summarized in countless other threads, especially this one. WashU students match very well, especially if their goals aren't out of line with their level of achievement while in medical school.

And I'll emphasize again that match data are useful only to a certain extent. A ton of externalities come into play. For example, I know of two people over the past few years here at WashU who tried to 'suicide match' (only rank one institution) in competitive specialties. That is crazy, so of course both of them had to scramble. One failed to scramble because he/she was looking for a RadOnc spot on the East Coast and turned down offers to go to community hospital spots in the Midwest and Southwest.

Moving on. This is important: class rank at WashU = 10% MS1; 30% MS2; and 60% MS3. This breakdown is voted on by the student body every 3-4 years (I forget if it's 3 or 4...). Thus, the P/F first year is de-emphasized intentionally...and the 'subjective' (yes, it often is) third year is over-emphasized, all relative to the graded second year. Current applicants, take that for what's it's worth.

Paulymath said:
I don't understand. Can you explain the incentives to me? If its not something you feel open to talking about here, then feel free to PM me.
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The only incentive I have is as follows:

I'm trying to look out for quality of future classes of students here at WashU. I'd like my future classmates to be as awesome as possible, and I'm not a fan of others discouraging applicants to come here using hyperbolic descriptions of the supposedly toxic environment that results from a single year of school having a grading structure that is stressful to some, but is desired and valued by many others.
 
LSLGPK said:
Yes, you're right that students have to be evaluated. But think of it this way, we're the only top ten school that has a tiered grading system. UPenn has H/P/F for one of its modules I believe. Evaluating based on clinical performance seems to be a more salient measure. Emotional intelligence, clinical skills, common sense judgment are more important than your test taking abilities or ability to memorize massive amounts of information when it comes to taking care of people. If you look at the evaluation forms for our third year rotations, it's actually quite specific and breaks down competencies such as clinical knowledge, interactions etc. Also, if you're really concerned about a fair, statistical measure of preclinical knowledge, I believe the USMLE Step 1 is a better measure because it is standardized between institutions and is a comprehensive examination. What is the point of having an additional measure of preclinical knowledge that just fosters stress and diminishes class cohesion? I don't believe grades increase motivation. In fact, I believe they decrease it. If you compare us to peer institutions, I don't think you could make the case that we're more motivated or competent than our fellow medical students at other schools. Simple psychology explains why grades can decrease motivation. Let's say you don't do well on one set of exams and make up your mind to try harder. Well let's say that the next block is significantly harder intrinsically, and you don't do well on that next set of exams. Let's say that happens again. It's a continual cycle of negative reinforcement that creates a situation of learned helplessness. You feel that you are stupid and cannot score well no matter how hard you try. And it becomes your reality. It is an incredibly depressing feeling to be afraid to say anything because you have no self-confidence anymore.
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LSLGPK, I'm pretty sure you're wrong about Penn. They're graded from the second semester onward, so 1 full year of pre-clinical grading out of 1.5 years versus WashU's 1 year out of 2 years. Someone else who interviewed there too, correct me if I'm mistaken.

condor87 said:
First of all, it's less than 1 week to Match Day! We'll all be able to comment on the latest results soon enough. Regarding scrambling, I know quite a lot about the match data here at WashU, as I am privy to some non-public information that I'm not allowed to share. What I can say has been summarized in countless other threads, especially this one. WashU students match very well, especially if their goals aren't out of line with their level of achievement while in medical school.

And I'll emphasize again that match data are useful only to a certain extent. A ton of externalities come into play. For example, I know of two people over the past few years here at WashU who tried to 'suicide match' (only rank one institution) in competitive specialties. That is crazy, so of course both of them had to scramble. One failed to scramble because he/she was looking for a RadOnc spot on the East Coast and turned down offers to go to community hospital spots in the Midwest and Southwest.

Moving on. This is important: class rank at WashU = 10% MS1; 30% MS2; and 60% MS3. This breakdown is voted on by the student body every 3-4 years (I forget if it's 3 or 4...). Thus, the P/F first year is de-emphasized intentionally...and the 'subjective' (yes, it often is) third year is over-emphasized, all relative to the graded second year. Current applicants, take that for what's it's worth.
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Candor, if you're a fourth year, good luck! Do you know if we'll be given a copy of the match list at second look?


My interpretation of all this: The fact that class rank is only 30% MS2 suggests that the second-year grading is not actually as cutthroat as it's being made-out to be by LSLGPK. If it was, the students at the bottom would almost certainly vote to bring it down even further from 30% and win. There are obviously not that many students getting stuck with all Ps and no HPs or Hs. LSLGPK, please show us a super brutal grade distribution if this isn't true. The one candor showed us earlier had like 8% P and 50%+ H, which is very generous.

Also, current students, can you comment on how receptive the administration is to change? If the grading or anything else were to create unpleasantness for students and students were to complain about it, do you feel that the administration would be fix the problem? If you could give a quick example of an infrastructure change that came out of student feedback, that would be awesome! Please and thank you 🙂
 
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Wow, what an interesting turn this thread has taken... Yes, I'm on spring break so I can lurk through other school's threads, cut me some slack.

To be honest, I totally understand what LSLGPK is saying... I'm at a P/F school and students still argue for points, as one example of competitive behavior. Nothing against them, I think it's just part of the med student personality. Had we not been on P/F, I could see many people letting their studies totally consume them, and anyone who wants a life outside of medical school will have to settle for being in the bottom of the class. Then, in the context of the school with the highest-achieving test takers in the country (talking about WashU now), it no longer becomes a question of how smart you are, but rather how much time you're willing to commit to study the material. That's a scary thought.

With that being said- if there's not a curve, then things should be okay... Just be prepared to work your butt off. I believe that comes with the territory of attending a top school, and anyone who goes to WashU just needs to know what to expect. An "average" graduate from WashU will still be very successful.
 
I'm a current Wash U student as well. Not in student government, not a "recruiter," and not even a lecture-attender. And I just want to say that I love it here at Wash U.
 
Current MS1. Also not on student government or in any way involved with recruiting. While I can't speak to 2nd year and the grading system then, I can speak to the quality of my classmates and the great respect that I have for them.

They are some of the most kind-hearted and empathetic people I've had the pleasure of meeting. A few weeks ago I found myself introducing someone to a bunch of my friends/classmates, and I kept repeating, "They're just so NICE" over and over again. Because they truly are. I've never felt as supported with this group of people as I do now. Is everyone perfect? No, but the vast majority of my classmates are really awesome people whom I love to death.

As far as the sharing of study materials goes, we absolutely do that. We have a google spreadsheet of all the info about the genetic disorders we're quizzed on every week that's open to everyone. We just had a classmate who's particularly well-versed in histo give 2 open review sessions for us of the past block. People make review powerpoints and email them out or put them on WUMSWeb. For our micro quizzes, randomized powerpoints get emailed out for review. If someone finds a really awesome website for a particular concept or class, they post it on the fb group.

As far as change goes, I know our Practice of Medicine course has undergone a lot of changes in response to student feedback. The research module was first block, but people complained about having something that hard with all the other courses, so they moved the test to 3rd block (the easiest of 1st year). Just a small example, but they do listen to us.

And LSLGPK, have you considered talking to someone about the problems that you're having? I've done the depression thing before, and it could really be helpful to you. I understand that transferring is very difficult b/w 2nd and 3rd year, but at least trying to talk to someone here might be good for you. I'm sorry you're having such a bad go of it.
 
I've done the depression thing before? I'm not sure you understand. It's not about me. You don't know what it's like to witness suicidal behavior. You don't know what it's like to go to 11300 (adult psychiatry unit) to see people you deeply care about completely broken down and nervous wrecks. Then when they are out of the hospital, see them shunned and ignored by people who are good at being nice and making good first impressions but not good at genuinely caring and helping people heal. They don't even try. There are the people who haven't been in the hospital but feel despondent, apathetic. Sure they put on a smile for the few hours you see them in FLTC, but if you take the time and they know you and trust that you care, it will come out. This isn't about me. It's about a general environment where superficial impressions are easy to come by but genuine compassion is hard to find.
 
LSLGPK said:
You don't know what it's like to witness suicidal behavior. You don't know what it's like to go to 11300 (adult psychiatry unit) to see people you deeply care about completely broken down and nervous wrecks.
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Actually, you don't know that the other poster doesn't know that. Claiming as much doesn't add to your credibility, although I'm not saying that your assertions are invalid or have no basis. I would just advise that you avoid blanket judgments about other people such as assuming that they have never encountered a very difficult life experience that you have encountered.
 
ywlke said:
Actually, you don't know that the other poster doesn't know that. Claiming as much doesn't add to your credibility, although I'm not saying that your assertions are invalid or have no basis. I would just advise that you avoid blanket judgments about other people such as assuming that they have never encountered a very difficult life experience that you have encountered.
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Thank you. I have had friends and family who have been suicidal and hospitalized, and on lots of drugs and even undergoing ECT. I've visited broken people, (been broken myself), and dealt with life-crushing apathy and lack of motivation in others. So let's not make assumptions like that.

And I still find my classmates to be empathetic and friendly and kind and overall good people.
 
Sorry to change the subject on what has been a very interesting topic to read thus far, but does anyone know when waitlist vs. rejection notices are going out?

Also, I interviewed in early February and haven't heard anything yet... am I right under the assumption that there are no additional acceptances to be had?

Thanks!
 
Thanks shidu54 for getting this thread back on topic.

This thread really is meant to be for pre-meds to discuss WashU and ask directed questions to current students, not for scores of current medical students to debate grading structures, support networks, and Step 1 scores (I'm just as guilty at taking us off topic as anyone, I admit it).

Now that we're back on topic: good luck to all applicants still waiting to hear back from WashU!
 
condor87 said:
Thanks shidu54 for getting this thread back on topic.

This thread really is meant to be for pre-meds to discuss WashU and ask directed questions to current students, not for scores of current medical students to debate grading structures, support networks, and Step 1 scores (I'm just as guilty at taking us off topic as anyone, I admit it).

Now that we're back on topic: good luck to all applicants still waiting to hear back from WashU!
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+1

If you have a problem at the school or with the student council, please meet offline to settle things. Complaining behind your monitor won't solve things and plus it bothers the **** out of applicants who are dying to hear any relevant news.
 
sorry ilegalturn and condor87, but I just wanted to add one more thought... I'm a pre-medical student, so I hope you do excuse me! And I did mean to post this earlier but I just took so long to word it as carefully as I could!!

LSLGPK, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I can't imagine how difficult it must have been especially since your post may reveal your identity to your classmates. I certainly don't have the courage to share the details of what I've heard during my visit, even though I am not even a washu student. But I wanted to share with the thread that LSLGPK is not the only person who feels this way--- I also heard from an informant about the competitive aspects of washu students while I was there for my interview.

However, I also heard that the competition varies year to year depending on students, which should tell you that it's not the educational system or the environment of washu that sparks competition. It really depends on you, the students, to make the environment. And even if you are in the "cut-throat" year, you can always find a close group of friends you can rely on.

Note that not every student feels the same about his/her institution. Like other washu students have said/implied, you shouldn't think that LSLGPK's experience will be your experience if you choose to go to washu. However, I do think that you shouldn't entirely dismiss LSLGPK's thoughts.

Again, I am not a washu student, so take my words with a grain of salt too. Good luck with your decisions. All I wanted to do was just to share with you that LSLGPK is not the only one and that his views aren't just because he's having a difficult time with the academics.
 
So... does anyone know when we might get our financial aid packages?

EDIT: Another question, is there a 2011 match list available online for WashU? I thought I had a physical copy from the interview day, but I can't seem to find it...
 
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pkl2031 said:
So... does anyone know when we might get our financial aid packages?

EDIT: Another question, is there a 2011 match list available online for WashU? I thought I had a physical copy from the interview day, but I can't seem to find it...
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I believe I got my package sometime in April last year.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=823525&page=11
^The match list is posted on that page, along with a lot of calculations done by chronicidal.
 
Just got the wait list email. Wasn't expecting any news, so that was an unwelcome surprise in my inbox. 🙁
 
+4, I'll take a waitlist here any day!
 
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How many do they put on wait list...and on average how much wait list movement is there?
 
The email says they expect to accept fifty off the waiting list.
 
I got waitlisted too. Is the waitlist hard-ranked or do they keep reviewing the files and send out offers as the spots open up?
 
Waitlisted bummer. I felt I had my best interview performance there. Ahh well should of applied earlier.

It's ok Yale just came in and Harvard last week so I think I'll say no to waitlist.


Good luck to everyone 🙂

Hug
 
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