This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
The ones I'd personally consider reputable would be Rutgers, Denver, Palo alto, UMass, Loyola. Just depends on how much debt you want to go into. Personally, a year off to beef up CV would be a much better return on investment to get into a fully funded program than to take on six figures of debt, but that's just me.
Of these reputable ones, do you think i have a chance of getting into ANY of them? Or are they all longshots? I know about the debt, and I'm working it out actively and thoughtfully with my family who are extremely generous about my education and have quite good careers in the financial business side of things. As stated, its a different conversation that i'm having about that. I'm very hesitant about the extra year doing research, especially if I can get into a decent (maybe not the best or most prestigious one ever , but decent for sure) psyd without it. If I have a good chance of getting into any of these ones here with a decent reputation, I'll take it (even if I do have to retake the GRE). While finances do matter, it's something I'm working on with my family so I am currently more interested in both quality of education as well as what might be reasonable for me to get accepted into. I understand that I will likely not go to the most prestigious program available in the country... but my stats and experiences aren't that bad (i hope/think) and there certainly must be some on my list (or that i haven't considered) that are both likely to accept me and also have decent reputations.....despite the debt.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
How important is it to have a publication (accepted manuscript, published, etc.) on your CV prior to applying to a Clinical or Counseling PhD program. I've heard tons of conflicting information, and obviously there's no exact science to and we're basically all just speculating and going off of the luck of the draw.
Importance will definitely vary and may depend on how much your POI values churning out pubs while you're in their lab and/or future academics. I know a prof who's well known in their niche research area and prides themselves on churning out academics so he absolutely requires quality pubs from applicants.

I also know other profs who will take folks with just research experience/poster contributions if they are a good fit and think they can contribute to their ongoing research. You can always look at the research webpages of POIs you are interested in, as well as how frequently they publish. Some may even have alumni sections and other info that may give you an idea of pub importance and what they are looking for.

Sounds like you have some good experience so good luck finding the right fit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I'm applying to Psyd Programs in the San Francisco Bay Area this fall for Fall 2021 (Palo Alto University, University of San Francisco, Wright Institute) and don't know much about acceptance into these programs and wanted to know my chances of getting in straight from undergrad with my current stats/experience:

I'm a senior Psychology major
GPA: overall 3.93, psychology major gpa 3.97

GRE:
- Haven't taken yet, expecting around 305-310 though, not really strong on either section

Research experience:
- 1 year 9 months as lab manager for a developmental child psychology lab with experience with data collection doing interviews with children, data analysis, first authored 1 poster and presented at professional conference
- currently in the Honors Psychology program working on my senior thesis

Clinical Experience:
- 1 year 4 months as relief counselor at a residential mental health agency with clients with severe mental illnesses and co-occuring disorders responsible for leading therapy/counseling groups with the clients in the houses, writing progress notes on client's symptoms, monitoring client's medication, assisting with case management tasks
-1 year 9 months as LGBT hotline support volunteer providing one-to-one peer support counseling and providing resources once a week

Letters of rec: 1 from lab supervisor, 1 from director of the honors program, 1 from program director/assistant of the residential treatment program
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I'm applying to Psyd Programs in the San Francisco Bay Area this fall for Fall 2021 (Palo Alto University, University of San Francisco, Wright Institute) and don't know much about acceptance into these programs and wanted to know my chances of getting in straight from undergrad with my current stats/experience:
I'm not familiar with CA schools but there are lots of old threads - use the search by forum feature:
THE WRIGHT INSTITUTE- Former or current students
Psy.D. - The Wright Institute
Palo Alto University Clinical Ph.D. Program

Based on what you posted, I think you could be competitive at a funded PhD/PsyD program if you find a good research fit with a POI and not be saddled with a huge debt load to start your career. This assumes openness/ability to look outside the SF Bay Area, which you will likely need to do anyways for internship and/or postdoc.

I would also caution anybody who may spend at least $175,000 pre-interest on tuition alone against a program that is brand new and accredited on contingency. USF is reputable so I imagine they will ultimately pass but given your undergrad efforts, I would hate to pay a bunch of money to be part of these guinea pig cohorts while the program figures itself out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I am a graduated BS in Psychology who is having trouble distinguishing what schools are actually attainable. I am planning to apply in the Fall of 2021 to clinical psychology PhD programs. I have asked the graduate students in my current lab this question, but this is such a nice way to get thoughts from other grad students who have successfully done the thing.

About me:

I attended a well-known R1 university in the midwest where I aided in research as an undergraduate RA for 3 years in 2 different labs (one running clinical trials in endocrinology, and later on I was in a developmental cognitive neuroscience lab - the latter sparked my interest in clinical psych). My senior year, I completed a project that allowed for me to travel to a large international conference for a poster presentation. I presented this again later in the year at our school's undergraduate forum and placed 3rd out of several hundred undergraduates. Separately, I received an award for this project. I now work as an RA at a fairly prestigious school in Chicago. I am currently listed as 5th author on a paper that is in submission, and I've already taken the lead on a small pilot project that I expect to turn into a poster at the very least, and with some work, a paper in which I could be first author. I have secured at least 2 very solid letters of recommendation and have a few people in mind for who could be a third. I have strong leadership roles from undergrad and a two others that I've recently taken up in my community.

Academically, I had a rough first 2 years of school. I came in thinking I knew what I wanted to do, and quickly realized I did not. While everyone around me seemed to love and fit perfectly into what they were studying, it became that much harder to focus on schoolwork and find my passion. I haven't yet decided how I will be framing this in my personal statement's but I am aware of the things to avoid (i.e., mental health difficulties and other clichés). Once I started studying psychology and joined the neuro lab I was in, things turned around completely. Though, as a result of the more-than-rocky start, my cumulative gpa is a 3.15, and major (psych) gpa is 3.66. In my last 60 credits (2 years) my overall gpa is a 3.76 and psych gpa in that same time frame is a 3.88.

My gpa is by far my biggest hinderance (at least in my eyes), and I don't yet have a GRE score but I am quite confident I can meet both math and verbal requirements for ~95% of schools. I am currently enrolled in a post-bacc certificate program at the school I work for in an attempt to show that I am continuing to educate myself and succeed academically. I've received an A in my first class and have 3 to go.


What do you think? Is there more I could be doing? I know how competitive things can be. This is what I want to do and I know if I have to apply a few times, I will. I just don't have a firm grasp of what things might be like when I take a swing at some of the schools at which I really would like to do research. I plan to apply widely, I just need thoughts on what I can be doing better!

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this, it's beyond appreciated!
 
What do you think? Is there more I could be doing? I know how competitive things can be. This is what I want to do and I know if I have to apply a few times, I will. I just don't have a firm grasp of what things might be like when I take a swing at some of the schools at which I really would like to do research. I plan to apply widely, I just need thoughts on what I can be doing better!
This is based on graduating from a funded PhD program and being involved in our interview processes from a few years ago. Stats are much less important than research fit and that will depend on your POI.

Are you applying to POIs that fit your previous research experiences? Can you articulate your current research interests and can these POIs see themselves mentoring you and you contributing to their ongoing projects? Is your poster relevant to the research programs of your POIs? Will they be impressed by what you've been working on? Do they have connections to profs that have already mentored you? - I think answers to these types of questions will go a long ways to receiving interviews and offers, much more so than GPA/GRE.

In my program, we had one POI who would always receive waaaaay more (and higher quality) applicants than other profs based on his research area/pubs so his 1 offer per cycle was much harder to get than other profs in the same program. And in my program, each professor pretty much exclusively got to choose who they made offers to so as long as there aren't red flags, you're likely fine (and your undergrad GPA shouldn't be a red flag IMO).

Lastly, I would be open in discussing your undergrad GPA in your cover letter and highlight how you've developed as a student and how you will continue that success in grad school.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
This is based on graduating from a funded PhD program and being involved in our interview processes from a few years ago. Stats are much less important than research fit and that will depend on your POI.

Are you applying to POIs that fit your previous research experiences? Can you articulate your current research interests and can these POIs see themselves mentoring you and you contributing to their ongoing projects? Is your poster relevant to the research programs of your POIs? Will they be impressed by what you've been working on? Do they have connections to profs that have already mentored you? - I think answers to these types of questions will go a long ways to receiving interviews and offers, much more so than GPA/GRE.

In my program, we had one POI who would always receive waaaaay more (and higher quality) applicants than other profs based on his research area/pubs so his 1 offer per cycle was much harder to get than other profs in the same program. And in my program, each professor pretty much exclusively got to choose who they made offers to so as long as there aren't red flags, you're likely fine (and your undergrad GPA shouldn't be a red flag IMO).

Lastly, I would be open in discussing your undergrad GPA in your cover letter and highlight how you've developed as a student and how you will continue that success in grad school.

Thanks for the quick response! That's really helpful advice. I am aware of "applying to the person" as opposed to the school, I guess I just worry that I'll get rejected by the program before I get the chance to be seen by the POI. Though I could be misunderstanding something! Like you said, I'm sure there are things I'll understand much better once I've gone through the process. I appreciate your help here!
 
Hello!

I'd love to get some insight on whether I'm in the ballpark of qualifying for clinical psych PhD programs, and what I'd need to do to up my chances. My primary concern is that I haven't been able to work in a clinical psychology lab studying pathologies or subject groups I'm passionate about. I'm also worried that because of COVID, it might be difficult for me to get this kind of experience in the next year. Any thoughts or insights are greatly appreciated. Thanks!

~~~ Here are my stats ~~~

Institution:
The University of New Mexico
Majors
: Chemistry (BA) and Psychology (BS)
Total GPA: 4.19
Psych GPA: 4.26
GRE: 165 verbal (96th percentile), 161 quant (75th percentile), and 5 writing (92nd percentile)

~~~ Here's my research experience ~~~

3 years working in a neuroscience laboratory studying fetal alcohol spectrum disorder in rat models. After my graduation, I got transitioned from a student lab aide to staff so I'm still working in this lab. In this role, I do behavior experiments (water maze and trace conditioning), assist with rat husbandry, cut and collect histological sections on the cryostat, conduct radiological incubations, do densitometry analysis, and a host of other lab duties. I have one published abstract from this work.

1 year working in a psychology / neuropsychology laboratory studying OCD and its morphometric correlates. In this role, I use FreeSurfer software to measure MRI brain regions, conduct literature reviews, and create and document computer protocols. I was also learning neuropsychological assessment batteries but then quarantine shut that component of the project down. My PI and I are in the process of writing a paper.

I have good relationships with both of these PIs, and I think they'll write me really good letters of rec.

~~~ Some places I'm thinking of applying ~~~
University of Wisconsin, Madison
University of Colorado, Boulder
Northwestern University
University of California, Berkeley
 
I just worry that I'll get rejected by the program before I get the chance to be seen by the POI
You can always contact POIs in advance to briefly introduce yourself, express interest, and ask any relevant questions and later on, send them a brief email after you've applied to remind them. Just be professional and mindful of of their time/interpersonal preferences. Some POIs may enjoy chatting with strangers while others may find it a bother. Overall, interpersonal fit will likely play some role in making offers.

My primary concern is that I haven't been able to work in a clinical psychology lab studying pathologies or subject groups I'm passionate about.
Which specific pathologies/subjects groups are you interested in? Are there clear links between what you've done previously or not as much? Are the POIs you've identified neuroscience-oriented?

At surface glance, your background feels like good prep for a neuroscience or experimental psych program so articulating why you want to pursue a PhD in clinical psychology will be really important. During some admissions cycles that I was involved in as a doc student, we would run across competent applicants but wonder 'Why are they applying to our program? Wouldn't they do better in _______?". When those questions were raised, it was often because they didn't demonstrate/articulate a good fit, even if their CV was stellar.

Overall, you seem to have good stats, good experience running research studies, experience with the lit review and study design process, and have engaged with publishing scholarship, which should be a plus for all PhD programs. You also have some really specific experiences/skillset that, while impressive on paper, could be outweighed by another candidate with less intensive research engagement but participated in ways more directly relevant to their future doctoral research projects.

Marketing your experiences and clearly articulating how your background can/will support successful engagement with future research, how these interests developed, future research you'd like to pursue, and possible career directions in your cover letter will be key in addressing program/POI fit. For example, are you interested more in a research career or a therapy/assessment career? What do you except PhD training to prepare you for career-wise?

Lastly, I'd definitely recommend identifying more programs/POIs. Even for applicants who are a carbon copy for what their POIs/programs may look for, I'd be worried about them getting an offer if they apply narrowly. Good luck!
 
At surface glance, your background feels like good prep for a neuroscience or experimental psych program so articulating why you want to pursue a PhD in clinical psychology will be really important

When I was a sophomore, I thought I wanted to go into neuroscience. Then, right after my junior year, I realized that I was much more interested in clinical psych. That's why I got a second lab aide position at the psychology lab. Technically, that PI is a clinical psychology researcher, but for several reasons I didn't get to participate in the more clinically-oriented projects. I got stuck on a morphometry project for over a year. I kept my neuroscience lab job partly because it was still good experience (even if it wasn't the specific field I was now interested in going into) and partly because it was my main source of income.

Do you think that if I express these reasons in my personal statement then faculty would be more understanding of my background, and perhaps more likely to think I was a good fit?
 
When I was a sophomore, I thought I wanted to go into neuroscience. Then, right after my junior year, I realized that I was much more interested in clinical psych. That's why I got a second lab aide position at the psychology lab. Technically, that PI is a clinical psychology researcher, but for several reasons I didn't get to participate in the more clinically-oriented projects. I got stuck on a morphometry project for over a year. I kept my neuroscience lab job partly because it was still good experience (even if it wasn't the specific field I was now interested in going into) and partly because it was my main source of income.

Do you think that if I express these reasons in my personal statement then faculty would be more understanding of my background, and perhaps more likely to think I was a good fit?
It would help to some degree, but fit is more about the specific PI and the program itself, not just that you are interested in clinical psych in general. How do your experiences and interests fit with theirs and their overall orientation?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
fit is more about the specific PI and the program itself, not just that you are interested in clinical psych in general
To add on, there's program fit and PI fit and it can get really, really specific in some situations.

If somebody is applying to a program with psychodynamically-oriented professors and they identify wanting to be a behavioral therapist, that's a poor fit. If one aspires to be an academic and they apply to a program that generally produces clinicians, that's a poor fit. These programs will realize that they likely can't provide you with the training, mentoring, and support you need to accomplish your goals, regardless of your qualifications.

If somebody wants to only research autism assessment for children and they apply to a PI who researches autism assessment for adults, that can potentially also be a poor fit. That PI likely already has adult-based datasets, has established connections/access to future adult data, and/or has no interest in child/adolescent autism so being able to support these interests (i.e., establishing a new line of research with children) may not be worth the effort, especially if they have other applicants who are more compatible.

Some programs state things very bluntly in their web materials while others require more decoding or sleuthing (e.g., searching professor pubs, identifying what is not emphasized in the materials). And often times, it can be helpful to establish contact with PIs for you both to assess potential fit prior to applying.

Do you think that if I express these reasons in my personal statement then faculty would be more understanding of my background, and perhaps more likely to think I was a good fit?
I can't say without seeing a statement/knowing more about how your current interests developed and what you want to accomplish in grad school and in your career (and how they fit with a program/PI). But it can also be a moot point if there are other quality candidates who have had the specific experiences that the PI is looking for. There will be times when a PI may 'stretch' in their acceptances but that is likely going to be super situationally dependent.

Some people may also go through a first round of applications and learn more about what they may need to get an offer in the future, as well as learn more about different types of programs and what they can realistically offer in supporting your ultimate career goals.
 
To add on, there's program fit and PI fit and it can get really, really specific in some situations.

Thanks for your thoughts! I guess one issue is that I'm not married to a singular research project. I'm interested in a lot of different areas including relationships, attachment, personality, storytelling/narrative, and positive psychology/mindfulness. In terms of career, I do know that I want to do primarily clinical work with some teaching (maybe adjunct or community college), but I can't say whether I'll never want to do any research at all.

I've been talking to some clinical psychologists I know (all of whom went to grad school in the 80s or 90s), and none of them knew exactly what they wanted to research before going into grad school. They didn't even look into the professors beforehand, just applied to the programs and connected with the professors after getting in. Then, during their grad school years, they figured out and finalized their research and career plans more thoroughly. Has this just totally changed in the past thirty or so years? I'll definitely be contacting professors, but I just feel like it's kind of unrealistic to expect every incoming grad student to know exactly what they'll want to research, and to already have a lot of research experience in that specific area.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Has this just totally changed in the past thirty or so years? I'll definitely be contacting professors, but I just feel like it's kind of unrealistic to expect every incoming grad student to know exactly what they'll want to research, and to already have a lot of research experience in that specific area.
I can't say across the board but for funded PhD programs, the answer is likely yes since academia has changed a ton since the 80s. There is more pressure and quantitative outcomes to measure how individual profs and departments are doing, plus career ambitions for academics have also changed.

Each student isn't expected to know the ins and outs of their thesis/dissertation already but there's a big difference between somebody who has defined interests with relevant research experience versus somebody who is curious and open to many options. Ultimately, a PI is making a major commitment when they make you an offer and may likely hedge their bets on people who have a demonstrated track record already, rather than somebody who may have more potential in the long run.

Let's say you get accepted by a PI doing attachment research and later decide you actually want to study personality. That PI was likely counting on you to contribute to their attachment research, can't easily replace you, and is also literally paying your way to be in the program. Plus, students who drop out look bad for programs and too many can even potentially impact accreditation status. Now, if you're paying your own way at an unfunded program, this equation is likely different.

Do I love this system? Absolutely not. I didn't come from a traditional psych background and I found my grad program to be less intellectually stimulating than my liberal arts undergrad since people were focused on super narrow interests. But :shrug:
 
Ultimately, a PI is making a major commitment when they make you an offer and may likely hedge their bets on people who have a demonstrated track record already, rather than somebody who may have more potential in the long run.

Right, that makes sense. Do you think that in order to be a competitive candidate I'd need experience in a lab directly related to an area I want to go into? Does it even make sense for me to apply this cycle with the credentials I already have?
 
Right, that makes sense. Do you think that in order to be a competitive candidate I'd need experience in a lab directly related to an area I want to go into? Does it even make sense for me to apply this cycle with the credentials I already have?
It's gonna be really dependent on where you apply. For example, I have no idea how many storytelling/narrative psych labs are out there for people to get that kind of specific experience. But there are likely research experiences similar to what they do. For example, if that PI only does qualitative research and you've done some qualitative research in a different content area, those skills should translate nicely, rather than a PI having to teach you from the ground up.

Another way to look at it is, how quickly can you get up and running with your grad school research? The longer it takes, the more likely that you'll be in school longer and the longer a program will need to fund you to achieve the same outcomes as a student who is able to move quickly on their thesis, complete that successfully, and immediately launch into dissertation (while contributing to other lab projects). Your PI will guide that process but the more you can be independent, the better.

With that said, I don't think it ever hurts to apply because even if you're unsuccessful, you'll likely learn more about the process, about programs, and can even solicit direct feedback on how to be more competitive from your PIs. And AKAIK, it's pretty common for people to re-apply after adding to their CV. And who knows, you might run across a professor who really wants to add to their lab this cycle (e.g., if they are graduating multiple people) and would be willing to do more teaching/mentoring if they think you're a good fit.

Applying is a really inexact science. With other postgrads like law school, based on LSATs and GPAs, you can pretty confidently identify reaches, school where you're competitive, and safeties and that just doesn't exist with funded PhD psych programs.

If you want, feel free to PM me your CV, more about your interests, specific PIs you are considering, etc and I'd be happy take a quick look and provide some direct feedback based on my experiences in this field.
 
Hi everyone,

good luck with your applications! I just wanted to put in a plug for schools in the Midwest/South (Kansas, OK, Arkansas) - I see some really decent applications coming through here who I think would have a really good shot at fully-funded Phd programs in that area. I realize some of these places may not seem desirable, but I think it's worth a shot to have an open mind and apply/go to the interview if you're getting an invite.

Hang in there!
 
Hello all!

I recently graduated from a Clinical and Counseling Psychology M.A. program with a 3.9 GPA (got a B in statistics... :( )
The reason I ever went to an M.A. program is due to my dooky undergraduate performance. I was pregs and had a child and just became dumb and not motivated and my grades suffered.

I'm looking to apply to PsyD or PhD programs in the near future (either the 2020-2021 year or the 2021-2022 year). However, here are some issues:

Weaknesses: Very little research background. I helped with a professor's research for about a year during my M.A. program and then decided I needed to shape up and began my own. Currently writing manuscript (would've been done by now if life circumstances hadn't happened). Should be done within the next month, will submit for presentations and cross fingers for publication.

Poor undergraduate GPA, however, a strong graduate GPA.

My GRE scores are.... eh. I didn't even know what a "GRE" was when I took it, I literally registered and took it the next day and was lucky to get into my M.A. program. V - 151, Q - 144, Writing - 4.0.

Strengths: I would call my graduate GPA a strength...? I do have a lot of clinical experience - a semester of practicum at the university's psychology clinic, a year of internship at a max security state hospital, have been working at that same hospital since September, 6 months of volunteer counseling with an (awesome) Vietnam veteran group (my favorite thing to have ever done). (Hopefully) a presentation and/or publication by the time I send in applications, as well as a start on another research project that is awaiting IRB approval. I do like research, but in undergrad, again, I was dumb and did not do my best...

Also, I'm studying for the EPPP now, taking it soon. Hopefully will pass and that won't be an issue later down the road. If you're wondering, I have to take and pass it to get LPA licensure in TX.

I looked into Adler University and made the mistake of applying and getting an interview. After seeing more about it on this forum... oof. I'm still going to the interview, however, to take a vacay and get the heck out of Texas for three days LOL.

Anyhow - here's my question: If I continue to try and improve myself, e.g., build research, is it likely that I can get into a PhD program? I'll accept a PsyD program if it's like EKU, IUP, University of Denver, maybe even West Chester. I'm not looking for anything too competitive, just something to help me where I need to be to achieve my dream (working with veterans, in a VA, being autonomous, etc.). Basically, if I want to do what I want to do, I have to have a doctoral degree and not a master's. Would I need to retake the GRE? Assuming it doesn't time-out before I apply anyway.

Sorry this is so long! As you guys imagine, all of it is suuuuper unnerving.

Hi all, still looking for feedback ('cause I'm applying here in the next month or so.... :oops: )
Here are some updates:
I'm still working at the inpatient max security forensic hospital (been a year now, wow!), and I also now have a second job administering and scoring psychological assessments (WAIS-IV, WISC-V, WIAT-III, WMS-IV, the MMPIs, PAI, etc. Learning more as I gain supervision).
I have passed the EPPP (at the doctoral level in most - all? - states. Over a 500) and am now licensed in TX.
Research - I feel is at a stand still. As stated above, I was dumb/lazy (and pregnant) in undergrad, didn't get much done. Tried to compensate in grad school, didn't get far. Keep having a back and forth about getting my manuscript done (e.g., other people on the "team" won't effing help me write it, when I've already done 90% of the legwork on the darn thing). Have started a new thing at my current employment but have been waiting many moons for IRB approval. No opportunities in my area for an RA job, cannot move unless it is for grad school acceptance. I can only afford 2 moves (for school, and for internship if needed). No pubs, no presentations, I suck I guess.

GRE - I know a lot of schools are waiving, not TOO worried there anymore.

Clarifications - Above I indicated that one reason I want a PhD/PsyD was to be autonomous. I have been asked about this. To clarify, I know that in hospitals, VAs, whatever, I won't be autonomous in the sense of the "boss" or "by myself." But I mean in the sense of given a bit more freedom/trust in my opinion than a Master's level (as I am now). The only reason i got a master's was to fix my grades and prove that I can do well in grad school. This isn't my end goal. It never was my intention, but here we are. I screwed myself and now gotta try and fix it. I just want real, truthful opinions from people in the field.

Anywayyyy, should I go ahead and give it a go and apply to 8-12 schools this year, or will I be laughed at due to my lack of research? Do I try and wait and bolster my CV? - Keep in mind I've been out a year, getting my license, working a FT job, now picked up a second job, and also homeschool my 5 year old (thanks COVID). I feel my time is running out, is this all I'm gonna be? Excuse me while I go through an existential crisis on SDN LOL
 
Hi all, still looking for feedback ('cause I'm applying here in the next month or so.... :oops: )
Here are some updates:
I'm still working at the inpatient max security forensic hospital (been a year now, wow!), and I also now have a second job administering and scoring psychological assessments (WAIS-IV, WISC-V, WIAT-III, WMS-IV, the MMPIs, PAI, etc. Learning more as I gain supervision).
I have passed the EPPP (at the doctoral level in most - all? - states. Over a 500) and am now licensed in TX.
Research - I feel is at a stand still. As stated above, I was dumb/lazy (and pregnant) in undergrad, didn't get much done. Tried to compensate in grad school, didn't get far. Keep having a back and forth about getting my manuscript done (e.g., other people on the "team" won't effing help me write it, when I've already done 90% of the legwork on the darn thing). Have started a new thing at my current employment but have been waiting many moons for IRB approval. No opportunities in my area for an RA job, cannot move unless it is for grad school acceptance. I can only afford 2 moves (for school, and for internship if needed). No pubs, no presentations, I suck I guess.

GRE - I know a lot of schools are waiving, not TOO worried there anymore.

Clarifications - Above I indicated that one reason I want a PhD/PsyD was to be autonomous. I have been asked about this. To clarify, I know that in hospitals, VAs, whatever, I won't be autonomous in the sense of the "boss" or "by myself." But I mean in the sense of given a bit more freedom/trust in my opinion than a Master's level (as I am now). The only reason i got a master's was to fix my grades and prove that I can do well in grad school. This isn't my end goal. It never was my intention, but here we are. I screwed myself and now gotta try and fix it. I just want real, truthful opinions from people in the field.

Anywayyyy, should I go ahead and give it a go and apply to 8-12 schools this year, or will I be laughed at due to my lack of research? Do I try and wait and bolster my CV? - Keep in mind I've been out a year, getting my license, working a FT job, now picked up a second job, and also homeschool my 5 year old (thanks COVID). I feel my time is running out, is this all I'm gonna be? Excuse me while I go through an existential crisis on SDN LOL
What specifically did you do in your previous research experience? Was it just grunt work?
 
Tried to compensate in grad school, didn't get far. Keep having a back and forth about getting my manuscript done (e.g., other people on the "team" won't effing help me write it, when I've already done 90% of the legwork on the darn thing).
Are you only looking at funded programs? If you have a master's degree and applied experience and can sign for hefty loans, I think you're ahead of the game for nonfunded PsyDs.

I got into a funded Counseling Psych PhD on the basis of my master's research experience (thesis with original data collection and intentions to publish, a roundtable presentation of thesis data at a regional conference, 4th author poster contribution on a different project) so I framed what I had done/learned about psychology research in my niche area to align with the interests of PIs and identified specific future work that I wanted to do under their guidance.

Are looking for continue your master's level research or go in a different direction? Was it an original project that you played a major design role in? How do you feel about research fit with prospective PIs? (Feel free to DM if you don't want to post these details publicly).

Regarding your applied experiences, I think most programs value successful completion of a master's degree, which speaks to professionalism and bodes well for finishing a PhD. However, your skillset are also things that every doctoral student will eventually receive training for. There are a handful of doctoral programs that require a MA/MS degree, some programs that may slightly prefer MA/MS, and others that prefer undergrads (i.e., blank canvas to mold). You'll also likely have group supervision with peers having their first-ever direct contact hours while you already have a licence so finding the right balance during interviews between being confident in your background/skills but also open to feedback and learning could be important

To clarify, I know that in hospitals, VAs, whatever, I won't be autonomous in the sense of the "boss" or "by myself." But I mean in the sense of given a bit more freedom/trust in my opinion than a Master's level (as I am now).
From my VA experiences, you're seen as an LIP first and foremost. I currently work in a clinic where MS & PhD providers have similar therapy caseloads (and no formal assessment duties). While more 'challenging' cases may be assigned to a PhD, I generally don't perceive different treatment based on degree and I base my judgment of competence on other factors like thoughtfulness, following the evidence, etc. And some supervisors who create conditions where we don't have autonomy may have control issues that nothing can fix.
 
What specifically did you do in your previous research experience? Was it just grunt work?

In undergrad I was a "research assistant" for a professor (not in a formal lab or anything, just part of a "team" for her personal research she was doing to get tenured lol) in which I did do grunt work - making posters for recruitment, going to classes to read them the informed consents to recruit, attending the meetings to provide input, etc. No real research of any kind, nope.

However, in my master's program I did not get to do a thesis because of some stupid crap about program transitioning. BUT, I did do my own like, "directed independent study" where I gathered a team of people (like three professors, another grad student, myself) to do this. I ended up doing EVERYTHING on my own - I created the survey, created the vignettes used in the survey, got IRB approval, did the recruiting, data gathering, data cleaning/sorting, and data analysis. ONE professor from the team ended up actually helping (ha, the "experimental psychologist" is who helped me - precious professor and awesome mentor). He helped me with the analysis and wrote the results section of the manuscript for me. I've written all other pieces (abstract, methods, discussion). I'm trying to get the other grad student (which, we have both graduated at this point) to pull their darn weight and write some of it so we can submit the darn thing for pubs/presentation (although, hard to present due to COVID). I'd just do it, but finding time is a pain.

Currently, at my job with the state hospital I am attempting to get IRB approval for something else. But this is as far as it goes for me, unfortunately.

It isn't that I dislike or suck (at least, I hope not) at research, but I have been awful at doing it throughout my academic life.

*Edit - let me add that if I can get published, I will be first author on this project.
 
Last edited:
Are you only looking at funded programs? If you have a master's degree and applied experience and can sign for hefty loans, I think you're ahead of the game for nonfunded PsyDs.

I'd prefer something funded, due to the fact that I've already accrued student loans throughout undergrad and grad school. I came from a not-so-well-off family and had no options, unfortunately. However, I am willing to go to a PsyD program like EKU or IUP, who are on the "cheaper" side. I know EKU provides tuition waivers and stipends for X amount and what not. I can't remember about IUP. I am NOT okay with 100k+ debt loads, though.

But, realistically, I know that funded programs are far more competitive, and I am.. eh.

Are looking for continue your master's level research or go in a different direction? Was it an original project that you played a major design role in? How do you feel about research fit with prospective PIs? (Feel free to DM if you don't want to post these details publicly).

Honestly, I'd rather go in a different direction. For example, use of assessment in forensic populations or something along those lines, or even research to do with trauma, treatment, or interventions as they pertain to veterans/military families. I'm attempting, given my current employment, to get something going with using the MMPI in this setting. As far as what I've done goes - It was an original project, and I designed the whole thing. But, it doesn't really fit with other interests that I've seen from PIs in places I've looked to apply (it's about people's perceptions of body art - heavy tattoos - on individuals that are already employed. There is research on how body art effects hiring, and we looked at how it would effect the public's use of that person's skills if they were tattooed vs not tattooed in a low status and high status employment setting, and controlled for whether the participants themselves had tattoos or not). I guess that might be... social psych stuff?? Lol, I'm tattooed pretty good, so it was just a personal interest for me, to be honest. Something that I could do to get my foot in the research door, so to speak.

Regarding your applied experiences, I think most programs value successful completion of a master's degree, which speaks to professionalism and bodes well for finishing a PhD. However, your skillset are also things that every doctoral student will eventually receive training for. There are a handful of doctoral programs that require a MA/MS degree, some programs that may slightly prefer MA/MS, and others that prefer undergrads (i.e., blank canvas to mold). You'll also likely have group supervision with peers having their first-ever direct contact hours while you already have a licence so finding the right balance during interviews between being confident in your background/skills but also open to feedback and learning could be important

I definitely get this. Part of the reason I want to continue graduate training, aside from things already mentioned, is that even licensed and whatever, I do NOT feel ready for this world. I value my training thus far, but don't feel it makes me a "competent clinician" by any means. If I get accepted somewhere, to me, I'll be on the same slate as everyone else. I by no means see that my experiences make me more valuable than anyone else.

Thank you for your feedback! Also, for anyone else who reads - speaking of feedback and being open as mentioned above, I'm ready for literally any feedback. Please, don't hesitate to tell me if something sucks haha!
 
In undergrad I was a "research assistant" for a professor (not in a formal lab or anything, just part of a "team" for her personal research she was doing to get tenured lol)
BUT, I did do my own like, "directed independent study" where I gathered a team of people (like three professors, another grad student, myself) to do this. I ended up doing EVERYTHING on my own - I created the survey, created the vignettes used in the survey, got IRB approval, did the recruiting, data gathering, data cleaning/sorting, and data analysis.
Currently, at my job with the state hospital I am attempting to get IRB approval for something else. But this is as far as it goes for me, unfortunately.
I'd put significant focus on what you accomplished and learned through these experiences in your cover letter to highlight your research potential, familiarity with processes relevant to future endeavors, and initiative since you may have less tangible output than some other applicants.

If you can clearly and effectively frame/pitch what you've done in a fashion that feels applicable to a PIs research and highlight how they can continue to mentor you, that's a possible path of addressing fit and getting your foot in the door for funded program interviews and perhaps over somebody with 'better' research but worse self-presentation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I'd put significant focus on what you accomplished and learned through these experiences in your cover letter to highlight your research potential, familiarity with processes relevant to future endeavors, and initiative since you may have less tangible output than some other applicants.

If you can clearly and effectively frame/pitch what you've done in a fashion that feels applicable to a PIs research and highlight how they can continue to mentor you, that's a possible path of addressing fit and getting your foot in the door for funded program interviews and perhaps over somebody with 'better' research but worse self-presentation.

Thank you, I more than appreciate your feedback! I'm choking down my pride of carrying this darn team and have been slaving to finish this manuscript to at least attempt to have it "in review" by app time.

I'm too hard on myself, which I recognize, so the hardest part in what you suggested will be trying to say nice things about my skills since I don't have the output to prove it. Thank you for this feedback, and for giving me hope. As it will hurt me to be going in so late (two years post-master's), I would be okay having another year off to bolster my CV as well. But, for hopes sake, I'm still going to try this cycle! Can't hurt! Well... maybe hurt my pocket it app fees... and my ego, but that's it, right? LOL
 
I'm too hard on myself, which I recognize, so the hardest part in what you suggested will be trying to say nice things about my skills since I don't have the output to prove it.
We all have our weak spots, which the application and especially interview process will attempt to clarify so don't do this hard work for these programs on the front end.

Write many drafts of your cover letters and get a range of people to read them, including people outside of psychology/academia, and get their honest impression of what your letter is conveying. An effective cover letter makes people want to interview you and spend more time getting to know your strengths and contextualize your weak spots compared to the applicant pool, which is always going to be the wild card. Good luck!
 
Hi Everyone! I'm a non-traditional student who earned a BA in Political Science in 2003, and then spent 15 years working for an international transportation company. I learned a lot of good lessons at this company and matured emotionally quite a bit. I wasn't happy with my career any longer and decided to change directions. I always had a passion and curiosity for psychology. I went back to school and will graduate in December with a BA in psychology. My goal is to become a clinical psychologist with a mix of clinical work and research. My research interests lie in emotion regulation and children/adolescents.

My concern is my previous undergraduate work. I graduated from the IB program at a school in Florida, however, I entered university a bit depressed, burned out, and very lost. I promptly failed out of my university after 2 semesters (1.44 GPA). I tried to go home to a community college and failed out the first semester as well (0.00 GPA). After 6 months I re-enrolled at the community college and began earning mostly As and some Bs (2.7 overall GPA). I was accepted at a local state university and earned a 3.6 GPA (3.25 overall GPA from all three schools).

My work in the current psychology degree is all As and 1 B (3.91 GPA). I think I have a strong case showing my improvement, but I'm not sure how to frame it in my personal statement. I don't want to mention the burnout and depression specifically, but I do want to convey that it was not a typical effort I put forth.

Even after resolving the personal statement issue, how much do you think the bad grades will affect my chances overall to a funded PhD program?

BA - Political Science minors Criminology; Leadership Studies
BA - Psychology, with department honors
GRE - V 163 / Q 152 / AW not scored yet (I just took the GRE two days ago)

3 semesters working in an Emotion Regulation and Temperament lab (plus 1 semester as a post bacc this coming spring)
2 poster presentations this summer at APS (moved online due to covid) - 2nd author and 3rd author

Senior honors thesis - With guidance from two professors and a grad student I am designing and implementing an intervention study this fall. I've been working on it since January. All the work is mine, but received guidance from my faculty sponsors. I am studying a cognitive reappraisal intervention at work designed to lower negative affect, perceived stress, and burnout. My professors think it has a chance of being published after all is said and done.

LORs - One from my lab director, and one each from my faculty sponsors on my project (I was also an in-class student for them both).

Any advice or feedback is much appreciated.

Thank you.
 
I think I have a strong case showing my improvement, but I'm not sure how to frame it in my personal statement. I don't want to mention the burnout and depression specifically, but I do want to convey that it was not a typical effort I put forth.
You definitely don't have to mention specifics like depression. One avenue would be framing your recent academic improvements as occurring after you discovered a passion which facilitated taking more initiative with your learning (e.g., doing non-required research, undergrad thesis).

It's been a long-time since those poor early grades so really highlight your recent track record and spell out in concrete terms the lessons/tools/strategies/etc you've gained during your 2nd degree that will help you to continue to be successful in grad school.

Just make sure you're applying to places that are good fits, especially if you're planning on applying to a lot of/only child psych PIs since there's less child faculty to start with. Good luck!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
You definitely don't have to mention specifics like depression. One avenue would be framing your recent academic improvements as occurring after you discovered a passion which facilitated taking more initiative with your learning (e.g., doing non-required research, undergrad thesis).

It's been a long-time since those poor early grades so really highlight your recent track record and spell out in concrete terms the lessons/tools/strategies/etc you've gained during your 2nd degree that will help you to continue to be successful in grad school. If you're a strong writer

Just make sure you're applying to places that are good fits, especially if you're planning on applying to a lot of/only child psych PIs since there's less child faculty to start with. Good luck!


Thank you for the advice. It is very much appreciated.
 
What are my chances?:

I really appreciate your help for anyone who can evaluate this! Please be as honest as possible. I am feeling like I will not get in this cycle. This is my first time applying for Psychology PhD/PsyDs. I will apply to mostly Clinical and/or Counseling PhDs, and may also apply for one PsyD. Right now I only have 5 schools on my list, I feel like I need more. My top schools are University of Colorado Boulder Clinical PhD and Colorado State University Counseling PhD (both have numerous faculty members that align with my research interests). So if anyone has insight on those two schools I would really appreciate your words!


Undergrad B.A.: I didn't major in Psyche as an undergrad (I studies Literary Arts [writing] and Modern Culture & Media [digital writing])—but also attended college from age 16-age 20 so I simply had no idea what I wanted to do as a career.... Once I decided on psychology 2 years post-undergrad, I applied and enrolled in a Masters degree program in Clinical Psychology.
M.A.: I took all the prerequisites for PhD programs during my Masters program, graduated in 2020
MA GPA: and finished my M.A. with a 3.9 GPA.
(Hate saying this but both my BA and MA were from Ivy League Schools)

Research Experience: I have 2 years of research experience: 2018-2019, asthma education intervention research (I took the position because I didn't have a lot of options but needed the research experience); 2019-present: The past year I have been working in schizophrenia research... From that Lab, I was on a paper but my name is far down the list among 20 authors. The journal it was published in was the Journal of Psychiatry and Brain Science, which is a high-impact journal. However, I don't have any other publications other than that and I don't have any poster presentations.

Research Interests: Positive Psychology & Positive Emotion disturbance
**I am only applying to schools with faculty members studying those subjects**

Publications (2): 1.) 20th author on publication in high impact journal (through schizophrenia lab I work at)
2.) First author (out of 2) on a narrative review article on the evolution of Positive Psychology & future directions in a low-impact, not well know journal.

Publications in progress (2): 1.) second author in paper on Adverse effects of meditation. 2.) Co-author on paper on Alzheimer's & Metformin (multiple authors)-- both of those won't be in super high impact journals, and won't be submitted until after Dec 1st

Book in Progress: 2 authors, a "Lexicon" style book, defining terms in my area of interest. Will not be finished by Dec 1st but still putting on my CV [We have been working on it since 2017 and its getting close to 300 pages].

Volunteer hours (Sept 2019-Dec 2020): I have 120 hours of volunteer experience in a psychiatric ER and hospital setting.
Experience w/ Autism (Sept 2019-Dec 2020): 240 hours of one-on-one experience as personal care aide to 10yr old with Severe Autism

Letter of Recommendation: My letters of recommendation will come from the PI at the schizophrenia lab, another administrator, associated with the lab, and 1 or 2 professors. All three letters will be VERY strong.

GRE: I took the GRE completely blindly last weekend (meaning Zero studying or looking into the structure of the test, I just wanted to get a baseline)— and I got 155 V, 149 Q, 4.5 AW. I plan on bringing those scores up quite a bit in the next 3 months and am going to take the GRE 2 more times before the deadline. I have my schedule lined up so that I can basically go to work and then come home and do nothing other than study for the GRE for about 45 days straight.

Grants: During undergraduate, received a grant in the amount of $300 with a team of three other students to purchase an EPOC EEG 14-channel Neuroheadset for a project titled 'Telepathically Responsive Virtual Reality.' The project was a creative art piece investigating computer game design, cognition, and EEG feedback."

I would feel a lot better if I had a few more papers out, but would my application be considered competitive in spite of this?

Also yes I know, I should try to present a poster at a conference. I am working on trying to set that up. I may be able to run a practice intervention on military veterans and submit that to a Positive Psychology conference. If I can pull it off, that would be great.

I'm so stressed out about it that part of me wants to skip this cycle so I can actually enjoy writing papers in the meantime, while waiting for the next cycle. But then I feel like I mind as well try to apply this year regardless.

Thank you!
 
Last edited:
Hi Everyone! I'm a non-traditional student who earned a BA in Political Science in 2003, and then spent 15 years working for an international transportation company. I learned a lot of good lessons at this company and matured emotionally quite a bit. I wasn't happy with my career any longer and decided to change directions. I always had a passion and curiosity for psychology. I went back to school and will graduate in December with a BA in psychology. My goal is to become a clinical psychologist with a mix of clinical work and research. My research interests lie in emotion regulation and children/adolescents.

My concern is my previous undergraduate work. I graduated from the IB program at a school in Florida, however, I entered university a bit depressed, burned out, and very lost. I promptly failed out of my university after 2 semesters (1.44 GPA). I tried to go home to a community college and failed out the first semester as well (0.00 GPA). After 6 months I re-enrolled at the community college and began earning mostly As and some Bs (2.7 overall GPA). I was accepted at a local state university and earned a 3.6 GPA (3.25 overall GPA from all three schools).

My work in the current psychology degree is all As and 1 B (3.91 GPA). I think I have a strong case showing my improvement, but I'm not sure how to frame it in my personal statement. I don't want to mention the burnout and depression specifically, but I do want to convey that it was not a typical effort I put forth.

Even after resolving the personal statement issue, how much do you think the bad grades will affect my chances overall to a funded PhD program?

BA - Political Science minors Criminology; Leadership Studies
BA - Psychology, with department honors
GRE - V 163 / Q 152 / AW not scored yet (I just took the GRE two days ago)

3 semesters working in an Emotion Regulation and Temperament lab (plus 1 semester as a post bacc this coming spring)
2 poster presentations this summer at APS (moved online due to covid) - 2nd author and 3rd author

Senior honors thesis - With guidance from two professors and a grad student I am designing and implementing an intervention study this fall. I've been working on it since January. All the work is mine, but received guidance from my faculty sponsors. I am studying a cognitive reappraisal intervention at work designed to lower negative affect, perceived stress, and burnout. My professors think it has a chance of being published after all is said and done.

LORs - One from my lab director, and one each from my faculty sponsors on my project (I was also an in-class student for them both).

Any advice or feedback is much appreciated.

Thank you.

@notapsycho
It's hard to tell how much a rocky start will affect admissions decisions. It totally depends on the person/people and could be different depending on how much they value or devalue it.

My advice is that you are going to have to rely heavily on a GRE score (they're already very good, but try to take the test one more time if you can afford it and bring them up even more!), and on those letters of recommendation. Will your recommenders let you provide a template or have some input about all the specific and wonderful things you would like them to include? If you are close enough with your recommenders, you could tell them that you are concerned about your prior transcripts and ask them to place emphasis on attesting to your achievements and academic ability in your LORs (The don't have to explicity state, "To address (your name)'s initial academic failures, I would like to advocate that he/she/they indeed have strong potential to succeed". Instead, just have them write several strongly worded sentences that specifically state that in their opinion you have a highly likelihood of succeeding at the rigor of a doctoral program, and then have them state specific evidence/reasons why). You could ask them to use language like "extremely motivated, bright, intelligent, takes initiative, tireless work ethic, great influence to those around her, extremely inquisitive, etc etc.... They could also talk about how you are "extremely grounded and mature thanks to valuable life experience.")..... Have them say so many positive things about your likelihood to succeed in a doctoral program that they begin to overpower the early transcripts. Simply priming the admissions officers which so much positive language will make them begin to see your first few transcripts in a much more positive light.... Remember that failure is an inspiring and attractive concept, if you portray it as a strength rather than a weakness.

In your case, you might benefit very much from a Masters in Psychology, which you could pursue if you don't get in this cycle. That way for your next cycle, you can have even more academic success to back up your story and make your case. An MA GPA will in most cases outweigh a BA GPA.

Your opportunity to explain in the Statement of Purpose is really important. If you wrote a PHENOMENAL essay about what happened and why, and how it lead you to success eventually, then you might be able to pull off getting in in lieu of the old transcripts. Some very smart people (some of whom may now be admissions officers) may have been in the same boat. It's not uncommon for a "smart" person to fail initially, due to reasons having nothing to do with academic ability. If I were you, I would allude to it making statements about things like how academic performance not correlated with intelligence or success (don't use those exact words, but something along those lines)- and talk about being a "life-long" learner and emphasize the lessons you learned during those years rather than talking about how they were "depressing". Remember that doctoral programs are just like jobs. You wouldn't go into an interview for a corporate job and tell the interviewer that you are or have been depressed in the past, right? Of course it's ironic being that this is the mental health professions. But hypocrisy aside, it does not look good to self-disclose in a professional setting unless you know the person (co-worker, boss, or in this case person of interest) really really well. Typically it is best to have your achievements speak for themselves, because they can see the pattern of success on paper. That is another reason Letters of Rec are instrumental- the information is not coming from you, its coming from a third party simply verifying your information.

That being said, it sounds like you may want to do at least some explaining. So yes, that will need to involve some words erring on the side of self-disclosure. In your SOP, dance on the line of "alluding to" those early years, but DO NOT characterize them as a failure. It may help to try to convince yourself personally that this is not the case. "Fake it til you make it". For the explanation, only write 2-4 sentences. You want to de-emphasize it, not draw attention to it. If I were you, To get some inspiration for writing this portion of your letter I would get on Google and research some famous/well-known/successful/influential people who totally failed out of school at first, but went on to have their intelligence shine through in their careers, leading to them now being renowned and known. See what kinds of inspirational things they said about their early years, how they characterized that, and then take that language and make it your own. Remember to EMPHASIZE your strengths, do not put anything in an outwardly negative light. You have to totally own it, and doing so means you cannot cast it in a negative light because that will be the end of your chance at getting in. Make it POSITIVE and then quickly shift into talking about how successful you've been ever since re-enrolling. You could say something like "At the time I was learning more through the subjective experience of life itself than I was in academics. It turns out that this experience has become extremely valuable and was a catalyst for my interest in Emotion Regulation" (That's pretty terrible wording, but along those same lines).

Try to really emphasize how interested you are in psychology. Detail the studies and research experience and posters you have done and try to come off overall as someone who is totally obsessed with psychological science and who LOVES learning. Admissions officers are looking for someone who wants to pursue academia for decades. It will be very important to show that you love school and learning. Flunking out of school initially could seem like you were just disinterested in learning. You need to make a case for yourself to mediate that misconception. Talk about how fascinating it was to take an alternative path during your initial attempts at school. Talk about how diverse the different people you encountered in those different schools were, and how rich and valuable the lessons you learned from those first few periods of your academic career were. Initial failure was just "another form of learning", but the common theme is that you love learning in general and are now in a phase of life where you would/could learn in the setting of a doctoral program.

Here is a list of successful people who flunked out of college. Read about their story. Examine their perspective on those times, and think about how that period of their life was one of the steps toward their eventual success. Obviously you don't want to name drop any of these people (especially since they are not in the field of Psych)- but you could simply use their story as inspiration for how to portray your own story:

Albert Einstein- was nicknamed "the dopey one" ("der Depperte") in childhood because he was believed to be stupid.
Bill Gates- dropped out of Harvard University.
Oprah Winfrey- she was a college dropout from Tennessee State University.
Dick Cheney- Not only did he flunk out of Yale University once, but twice.
Scott Carpenter- He started out studying aeronautical engineering at the University of Colorado, but flunked out during his senior year (later became the first human to enter space).
F. Scott Fitzgerald- He failed out of Princeton University
David Geffen- Not only did he flunk out of Brooklyn College, but he also dropped out of the University of Texas.
John Lennon- expelled from the Liverpool College of Art.
Steve Jobs- dropped out of college
Ted Turner- kicked out of Brown University
Paul Allen- dropped out of Washington State University


Finally, turn to inspirational quotes on initial failure and the lessons learned from failure to guide you in writing your SOP. It's not always advisable to include quotes in your SOP, but I find that before writing, reading as much as I can on a subject to prime and inspire my mind in the right direction is incredibly helpful. I will leave you with a quote:

“It’s not the critic who counts; Not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit goes to the one who is actually in the arena; Who strives valiantly; who errs and comes up short again and again; Who knows the great devotions, the great enthusiasms, and spends himself in a worthy cause. Who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and, at the worst, if he fails at least he fails while daring greatly; so that his place will never be among those timid and cold souls who know neither victory or defeat.
— Theodore Roosevelt
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Research Interests: Positive Psychology & Positive Emotion disturbance
**I am only applying to schools with faculty members studying those subjects**
You've shown you can complete a grad program and have been involved in a active research projects so I think a lot is gonna ride on fit, how much they value these experiences, and who you are competing against.

As you review the CVs of possible PIs, what kinds of analyses are they typically running? Do they seem like stats nerds (SEM, bootstrapping, etc)? Are they using mixed methods or qualitative designs? How does that align with your previous projects/experiences? Did your adverse effects of meditation project collect original data or is it a lit review-type piece?

Based on profs I knew in grad school, they tended to pick students with similar content interests as well similar research design instincts since those students would likely be the easiest to mentor.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
@notapsycho
It's hard to tell how much a rocky start will affect admissions decisions. It totally depends on the person/people and could be different depending on how much they value or devalue it.

My advice is that you are going to have to rely heavily on a GRE score (they're already very good, but try to take the test one more time if you can afford it and bring them up even more!), and on those letters of recommendation. Will your recommenders let you provide a template or have some input about all the specific and wonderful things you would like them to include? If you are close enough with your recommenders, you could tell them that you are concerned about your prior transcripts and ask them to place emphasis on attesting to your achievements and academic ability in your LORs (The don't have to explicity state, "To address (your name)'s initial academic failures, I would like to advocate that he/she/they indeed have strong potential to succeed". Instead, just have them write several strongly worded sentences that specifically state that in their opinion you have a highly likelihood of succeeding at the rigor of a doctoral program, and then have them state specific evidence/reasons why). You could ask them to use language like "extremely motivated, bright, intelligent, takes initiative, tireless work ethic, great influence to those around her, extremely inquisitive, etc etc.... They could also talk about how you are "extremely grounded and mature thanks to valuable life experience.")..... Have them say so many positive things about your likelihood to succeed in a doctoral program that they begin to overpower the early transcripts. Simply priming the admissions officers which so much positive language will make them begin to see your first few transcripts in a much more positive light.... Remember that failure is an inspiring and attractive concept, if you portray it as a strength rather than a weakness.

In your case, you might benefit very much from a Masters in Psychology, which you could pursue if you don't get in this cycle. That way for your next cycle, you can have even more academic success to back up your story and make your case. An MA GPA will in most cases outweigh a BA GPA.

Your opportunity to explain in the Statement of Purpose is really important. If you wrote a PHENOMENAL essay about what happened and why, and how it lead you to success eventually, then you might be able to pull off getting in in lieu of the old transcripts. Some very smart people (some of whom may now be admissions officers) may have been in the same boat. It's not uncommon for a "smart" person to fail initially, due to reasons having nothing to do with academic ability. If I were you, I would allude to it making statements about things like how academic performance not correlated with intelligence or success (don't use those exact words, but something along those lines)- and talk about being a "life-long" learner and emphasize the lessons you learned during those years rather than talking about how they were "depressing". Remember that doctoral programs are just like jobs. You wouldn't go into an interview for a corporate job and tell the interviewer that you are or have been depressed in the past, right? Of course it's ironic being that this is the mental health professions. But hypocrisy aside, it does not look good to self-disclose in a professional setting unless you know the person (co-worker, boss, or in this case person of interest) really really well. Typically it is best to have your achievements speak for themselves, because they can see the pattern of success on paper. That is another reason Letters of Rec are instrumental- the information is not coming from you, its coming from a third party simply verifying your information.

That being said, it sounds like you may want to do at least some explaining. So yes, that will need to involve some words erring on the side of self-disclosure. In your SOP, dance on the line of "alluding to" those early years, but DO NOT characterize them as a failure. It may help to try to convince yourself personally that this is not the case. "Fake it til you make it". For the explanation, only write 2-4 sentences. You want to de-emphasize it, not draw attention to it. If I were you, To get some inspiration for writing this portion of your letter I would get on Google and research some famous/well-known/successful/influential people who totally failed out of school at first, but went on to have their intelligence shine through in their careers, leading to them now being renowned and known. See what kinds of inspirational things they said about their early years, how they characterized that, and then take that language and make it your own. Remember to EMPHASIZE your strengths, do not put anything in an outwardly negative light. You have to totally own it, and doing so means you cannot cast it in a negative light because that will be the end of your chance at getting in. Make it POSITIVE and then quickly shift into talking about how successful you've been ever since re-enrolling. You could say something like "At the time I was learning more through the subjective experience of life itself than I was in academics. It turns out that this experience has become extremely valuable and was a catalyst for my interest in Emotion Regulation" (That's pretty terrible wording, but along those same lines).

Try to really emphasize how interested you are in psychology. Detail the studies and research experience and posters you have done and try to come off overall as someone who is totally obsessed with psychological science and who LOVES learning. Admissions officers are looking for someone who wants to pursue academia for decades. It will be very important to show that you love school and learning. Flunking out of school initially could seem like you were just disinterested in learning. You need to make a case for yourself to mediate that misconception. Talk about how fascinating it was to take an alternative path during your initial attempts at school. Talk about how diverse the different people you encountered in those different schools were, and how rich and valuable the lessons you learned from those first few periods of your academic career were. Initial failure was just "another form of learning", but the common theme is that you love learning in general and are now in a phase of life where you would/could learn in the setting of a doctoral program.

Here is a list of successful people who flunked out of college. Read about their story. Examine their perspective on those times, and think about how that period of their life was one of the steps toward their eventual success. Obviously you don't want to name drop any of these people (especially since they are not in the field of Psych)- but you could simply use their story as inspiration for how to portray your own story:

Albert Einstein- was nicknamed "the dopey one" ("der Depperte") in childhood because he was believed to be stupid.
Bill Gates- dropped out of Harvard University.
Oprah Winfrey- she was a college dropout from Tennessee State University.
Dick Cheney- Not only did he flunk out of Yale University once, but twice.
Scott Carpenter- He started out studying aeronautical engineering at the University of Colorado, but flunked out during his senior year (later became the first human to enter space).
F. Scott Fitzgerald- He failed out of Princeton University
David Geffen- Not only did he flunk out of Brooklyn College, but he also dropped out of the University of Texas.
John Lennon- expelled from the Liverpool College of Art.
Steve Jobs- dropped out of college
Ted Turner- kicked out of Brown University
Paul Allen- dropped out of Washington State University


Finally, turn to inspirational quotes on initial failure and the lessons learned from failure to guide you in writing your SOP. It's not always advisable to include quotes in your SOP, but I find that before writing, reading as much as I can on a subject to prime and inspire my mind in the right direction is incredibly helpful. I will leave you with a quote:

“It’s not the critic who counts; Not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit goes to the one who is actually in the arena; Who strives valiantly; who errs and comes up short again and again; Who knows the great devotions, the great enthusiasms, and spends himself in a worthy cause. Who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and, at the worst, if he fails at least he fails while daring greatly; so that his place will never be among those timid and cold souls who know neither victory or defeat.
— Theodore Roosevelt


Thank you for the personal statement tips and inspirational message. Btw, that Teddy Roosevelt quote is my favorite inspirational quote.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Hi everyone - I am looking to apply for mainly Clinical or Developmental Ph.D. programs this upcoming cycle for Fall 2021. I am applying to faculty that have a firm interest in children on the Autism spectrum, with emphasis on early assessment/intervention and to a lesser extent community outreach and eye-tracking/EEG measurements.

Major: Psychology B.S.
Minor: Medicine & Society

GPA: 3.70
Major GPA: 3.97

GRE: 325
Quant: 158
Verbal: 167
Writing: 5.5

Research:
- 2+ years with a cognitive development lab focused on learning, language, and attention in infants and young children by using eye-trackers and EEG tech. Started off as a volunteer regular/senior research assistant, then was promoted to a paid position as a lead research assistant. I have been in-charge of a project focused on autistic children (+ typically-developing and deaf children) for over a year. I also train and supervise other research assistants in all duties (study protocol, recruitment, data coding, literature review, etc), as well as conduct multiple psychological tests for our studies.

Other:
- 1+ year paid as a Registered Behavior Technician in ABA Therapy. I worked with patients 2 - 24 years old, but was placed mostly with minimally verbal/nonverbal infants and teenagers that were diagnosed with Autism.
- 6+ years volunteering as a swim coach and meet administrator for Special Olympics. I worked mainly with 5 - 20 year olds that were diagnosed with Autism or Down's Syndrome.
- 2+ years volunteering as a crisis counselor for Crisis Text Line.
- 6 months volunteering in patient services and administration for a hospital's pediatric care unit.
- 3+ years paid as a swim instructor and lifeguard at a local gym. I worked mainly with infants and young children, and was the go-to instructor for any client that had special needs.

Honors:
- Provost Undergraduate Research Scholarship (for autism research)
- Academic Excellence Scholarship
- Dean's List
- Graduated with University Honors Distinction


My main concern is my lack of publications and posters. I graduated a year early, which prevented me from submitting a poster to my college's undergraduate conference as I had originally planned, and COVID-19 (along with some other factors) has most likely pushed back the paper that my team is working on. Additionally, my lower cumulative GPA compared to my major GPA is due to my original career plan back in my freshman/early sophomore years being to pursue medical school (but then I fell in love with research and things changed!). Finally, while I will have two strong letters of recommendations from my PI and another Ph.D. mentor on my research team, my third letter will be from a professor whom I only had one class with, and will most likely be much weaker (I originally was going to use one of my ABA supervisors, but he moved companies and is no longer available).

My short list (planning on adding 2-3 more):
Virginia Tech - Clinical
Arkansas - Clinical
Virginia - Clinical-School
South Carolina - Clinical-Community
Pitt - Clinical-Developmental
Boston - Developmental
UT Dallas - Psychological Sciences
University of Houston - Neuro
Ohio State - Intellectual and Developmental Disorders


Any input would be appreciated. Thank you! :)
 
Hi everyone - I am looking to apply for mainly Clinical or Developmental Ph.D. programs this upcoming cycle for Fall 2021. I am applying to faculty that have a firm interest in children on the Autism spectrum, with emphasis on early assessment/intervention and to a lesser extent community outreach and eye-tracking/EEG measurements.

Major: Psychology B.S.
Minor: Medicine & Society

GPA: 3.70
Major GPA: 3.97

GRE: 325
Quant: 158
Verbal: 167
Writing: 5.5

Research:
- 2+ years with a cognitive development lab focused on learning, language, and attention in infants and young children by using eye-trackers and EEG tech. Started off as a volunteer regular/senior research assistant, then was promoted to a paid position as a lead research assistant. I have been in-charge of a project focused on autistic children (+ typically-developing and deaf children) for over a year. I also train and supervise other research assistants in all duties (study protocol, recruitment, data coding, literature review, etc), as well as conduct multiple psychological tests for our studies.

Other:
- 1+ year paid as a Registered Behavior Technician in ABA Therapy. I worked with patients 2 - 24 years old, but was placed mostly with minimally verbal/nonverbal infants and teenagers that were diagnosed with Autism.
- 6+ years volunteering as a swim coach and meet administrator for Special Olympics. I worked mainly with 5 - 20 year olds that were diagnosed with Autism or Down's Syndrome.
- 2+ years volunteering as a crisis counselor for Crisis Text Line.
- 6 months volunteering in patient services and administration for a hospital's pediatric care unit.
- 3+ years paid as a swim instructor and lifeguard at a local gym. I worked mainly with infants and young children, and was the go-to instructor for any client that had special needs.

Honors:
- Provost Undergraduate Research Scholarship (for autism research)
- Academic Excellence Scholarship
- Dean's List
- Graduated with University Honors Distinction


My main concern is my lack of publications and posters. I graduated a year early, which prevented me from submitting a poster to my college's undergraduate conference as I had originally planned, and COVID-19 (along with some other factors) has most likely pushed back the paper that my team is working on. Additionally, my lower cumulative GPA compared to my major GPA is due to my original career plan back in my freshman/early sophomore years being to pursue medical school (but then I fell in love with research and things changed!). Finally, while I will have two strong letters of recommendations from my PI and another Ph.D. mentor on my research team, my third letter will be from a professor whom I only had one class with, and will most likely be much weaker (I originally was going to use one of my ABA supervisors, but he moved companies and is no longer available).

My short list (planning on adding 2-3 more):
Virginia Tech - Clinical
Arkansas - Clinical
Virginia - Clinical-School
South Carolina - Clinical-Community
Pitt - Clinical-Developmental
Boston - Developmental
UT Dallas - Psychological Sciences
University of Houston - Neuro
Ohio State - Intellectual and Developmental Disorders


Any input would be appreciated. Thank you! :)
I'd strongly recommend that you do a clinical or combined clinical PhD. The job market is much better, especially given your interests.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Hi everyone - I'm currently looking at clinical psych programs (mostly PsyDs due to an iffy GPA- my undergrad psych director told me I didn't stand a chance at getting into a PhD program). I'm focusing my search more on the western half of the US, but I'm not super tied down. It seems that every PsyD program I look at has a terrible reputation here so I'm also having a lot of trouble even coming up with schools worth applying to.

Major: Psychology B.A.
Minor: Political Science

GPA: 3.21
Major GPA: 3.65

GRE: 323
Quant: 160
Verbal: 163
Writing: 3.5

Research:
- 1.5 years in a neuro lab focusing on fear memory engrams in mice, including fear conditioning and memory extinction

Other:
- 4 months as a Mental Health Specialist at McLean Hospital - I had to find a position elsewhere because I got sick from working nights.
- Currently working at another hospital as a Counselor
- 6 months volunteering in a special education school, until the covid shutdown, working with kids with developmental and behavioral issues

My primary interest is in a Clinical Psychology degree with a focus on bipolar disorder or psychosis, as those are what I've had the most direct experience with at work. My end goal is to be a therapist. I applied to a couple of schools last year and didn't get in, but I was told to get ore clinical experience and then reapply. I know I'm getting some pretty good recommendation letters and my psych GPA was decent, but I have no idea what to do from here. I've looked at University of Denver (top choice, but SO expensive) and Pacific University as my two favorites, but I honestly have no idea where to go from here. I know I'm not the strongest candidate out there but do I stand a chance? (I know I've seen negative things about Pacific but I know someone who got her PsyD there and she is really great at what she does). Any advice? Is a PhD program even a possibility? Will I find a PsyD program that's not a degree mill?
 
I've looked at University of Denver (top choice, but SO expensive) and Pacific University as my two favorites, but I honestly have no idea where to go from here.
Have you run the financial costs yet? If you haven't yet or done it in a systematic fashion, open up a spreadsheet, find some student loan interest calculators, figure out typical living expenses in these areas, and whatever financial obligations you currently have and get crunching.

Pacific would cost over $50,000 per year ($37,000 tuition + living expenses) for a minimum of 4 years on campus, 1 year of internship (low $20k salary), and either 1 year of postdoc or supervised work (salaries starting at $40k) so you're at least 6 years away from earning a 'full' salary while interest on your loans accrue, which will impact all of your future life decisions.

a focus on bipolar disorder or psychosis, as those are what I've had the most direct experience with at work. My end goal is to be a therapist.
Are you planning on being a psychologist in that type of setting (acute inpatient, state hospital, etc)? Get familiar with typical salaries for doing this type of work before committing to a self-pay PsyD. It seems like some PsyDs end up working in fields with higher earning potential (forensics, neuropsych) and psychosis is definitely not that. Since you've had some hospital experiences, are there other intervention roles that you could see yourself happily doing?

Is a PhD program even a possibility?
Based on what you've provided and because psychosis, bipolar, and first-episode research is pretty competitive for funded labs at clinical psych PhDs, I don't think you'd be competitive today.

But if that's what you really want to do, you don't need that much research experience to potentially be competitive in another cycle or two (if you're getting the right types of experiences). Other interests that align more with counseling psych PhDs and relevant experiences could also be considered.
 
Have you run the financial costs yet? If you haven't yet or done it in a systematic fashion, open up a spreadsheet, find some student loan interest calculators, figure out typical living expenses in these areas, and whatever financial obligations you currently have and get crunching.

Pacific would cost over $50,000 per year ($37,000 tuition + living expenses) for a minimum of 4 years on campus, 1 year of internship (low $20k salary), and either 1 year of postdoc or supervised work (salaries starting at $40k) so you're at least 6 years away from earning a 'full' salary while interest on your loans accrue, which will impact all of your future life decisions.


Are you planning on being a psychologist in that type of setting (acute inpatient, state hospital, etc)? Get familiar with typical salaries for doing this type of work before committing to a self-pay PsyD. It seems like some PsyDs end up working in fields with higher earning potential (forensics, neuropsych) and psychosis is definitely not that. Since you've had some hospital experiences, are there other intervention roles that you could see yourself happily doing?


Based on what you've provided and because psychosis, bipolar, and first-episode research is pretty competitive for funded labs at clinical psych PhDs, I don't think you'd be competitive today.

But if that's what you really want to do, you don't need that much research experience to potentially be competitive in another cycle or two (if you're getting the right types of experiences). Other interests that align more with counseling psych PhDs and relevant experiences could also be considered.
Than you for your reply! I haven't looked into the costs at that level of detail, but I absolutely will. I just don't know what kind of chances I have with less expensive programs, because most PsyD progams seem to get dumped on a lot on this website. Denver is one of the only ones that seems respected, but $60k per year in tuition is ridiculously expensive. I honestly just don't think I have a chance at any funded program (PsyD or PhD).
I would like to work in an acute inpatient setting, but forensic psych is also one of my interests. Being a therapist is my top choice, I'm not looking into social work or nursing.
Your last comment got me to look into counseling programs, and it seems that they're not very different from clinical ones. I will absolutely have to look more into those. At this point though, I'm just trying to figure out if the doctorate is even worth it, or if I should get a Master's now and then reconsider the doctorate afterward.
 
because most PsyD progams seem to get dumped on a lot on this website
A big reason is the possibility of coming out of grad school with $200,000+ in student loans to work a job with a median salary in the $70,000s is usually a pretty terrible idea. And many PsyD programs willingly admit more students than they should, which will dilute the educational experiences that you'd be paying mightily for.

I honestly just don't think I have a chance at any funded program (PsyD or PhD).
I think some people get cornered into making the false choice of unfunded PsyD or nothing. Getting relevant research experience (generating hypotheses, research design, data collection, analysis/interpretation) is doable in a 1-2 year span if you're able to devote enough time/energy/resources. Some will do it through a formal MA/MS program, some find a paid RA job, and some will volunteer.

Your undergrad GPA can be problematic for programs that get 100+ applications a cycle and need to make cuts for time's sake but with the right additional research experiences, smartly applying to funded programs that you're a good fit for, and some prior outreach to faculty who you'd like to work with, you can become competitive in the near future.

Take a look at older posts in this thread (and other application threads) and compare yourself to people who received positive feedback about their competitiveness and figure out if it's an option to follow in those footsteps.

Your last comment got me to look into counseling programs, and it seems that they're not very different from clinical ones.
Some counseling programs are very university-counseling center focused but others will be more aligned with a typical clinical program. Closely examine what the faculty research interests are, how a program describes itself, data on what settings graduates work in, info on sites where the program has practica relationships, and you should get a better sense.

At this point though, I'm just trying to figure out if the doctorate is even worth it, or if I should get a Master's now and then reconsider the doctorate afterward.
If you do get a Master's, be aware of degrees that provide you with a pathway to a license to work as a Master's level therapist and which do not. If it's unclear, clarify with the program. There are a lot of options and they all have varying pros and cons so make sure to find one that can accommodate as many future goals/pathways as possible. Good luck!
 
Hi all!
What are the chances of getting into Denver University's Psy.D. Program? Or any Psy. D program for that matter? I'm applying in December but I'm a bit stressed out as I don't have clinical experience. I switched my major from biology to psychology during the last semester of my sophomore year. My overall GPA is a 3.71, psych GPA 3.80. I'm involved in research, I'm a stats and psychology tutor, volunteer experience but it wasn't hands on (it was public outreach to spread information about what mental illness looks like in adolescents and teenagers trying to break stigma surrounding mental illness) and I'm the Vice President of a psychology club for my college. Without clinical experience, I'm afraid that I won't be accepted or taken seriously.
All that said, what are my chances of getting into a Psy.D program?
 
What are the chances of getting into Denver University's Psy.D. Program?
Have you run the financials? Assuming you're able to graduate Denver with 4 years of on-campus instruction, you're looking at a minimum of $250,000 in student loans (compounding to ~$370,000 in 20 years given current interest rates). The median psychologist salary is ~$75,000, which will be closer to $50,000 net after federal and state income taxes. On a 20-year repayment plan, that's ~$1500 a month in loan payments while you take home ~$4000, which would likely put you behind the management team at your local Target.

I'm a bit stressed out as I don't have clinical experience.
I don't have direct knowledge about U of Denver or PsyD admissions preferences but generally speaking research experience > clinical experience because students without adequate research training are much more likely to not be able to graduate (e.g., completing their dissertation) and everybody will be getting at least 5 years of graduate clinical training. Plus the only clinical experiences applicants can get are ones that require a GED (psych tech, residence life, peer counseling, crisis line volunteer, etc) so volunteer experiences are usually used to help us to demonstrate our interest in this field. But it's certainly not the only way to do that.

What type of research did you do? Unless you're deadset on being admitted to a PsyD program next fall, you could spend 1-2 years getting additional research experience that include opportunities to publish (look for paid RA gigs) and potentially become competitive for funded PhD programs. Some loans still may be needed to cover living expenses but you'd start your career in a much better spot financially while potentially receiving better training.
 
Hi all!
What are the chances of getting into Denver University's Psy.D. Program? Or any Psy. D program for that matter? I'm applying in December but I'm a bit stressed out as I don't have clinical experience. I switched my major from biology to psychology during the last semester of my sophomore year. My overall GPA is a 3.71, psych GPA 3.80. I'm involved in research, I'm a stats and psychology tutor, volunteer experience but it wasn't hands on (it was public outreach to spread information about what mental illness looks like in adolescents and teenagers trying to break stigma surrounding mental illness) and I'm the Vice President of a psychology club for my college. Without clinical experience, I'm afraid that I won't be accepted or taken seriously.
All that said, what are my chances of getting into a Psy.D program?
To get into a funded PsyD (which are usually the research-oriented PsyD’s) you would need some solid research experience. To get into an unfunded PsyD, more practice oriented, usually they want clinical experience yeah. Denver University (University of Denver)’s PsyD program is one of the more expensive programs as previous posters have said.

But for the sake of answering your question, “How hard is it to get in to Denver’s PsyD?”..............‘The Insiders Guide to Graduate Programs in Clinical & Counseling Psychology’ (Sayette & Norcross, Eds., 2020) has stats in the back of their book about most programs—- which reports DU’s PsyD, the # for applied vs. Admitted (in 2017): 482 applied, 68 admission offers, 37 incoming. Full tuition waiver went to 10% of students, 24% of students got assistantships/fellowships. 100% APA internship match rate.

Be careful with Denver University PsyD’s Statement of Purpose topic. Yes they ask for a rather personal snapshot into your mind and explicitly state that your answer will require a degree of self disclosure. But that doesn’t mean it’s a green light to get totally unprofessional with it. Self-disclose wisely: do so only in the context of relating any points or observations you make directly back to how this is relevant to your interest in psychology. Just try to remember this is a professional essay you are writing not a diary entry. DU PsyD’s essay prompt is not typical to doctoral programs but still, make sure to take that invitation to self-disclose with the caveat of “to the degree that it is relevant to your career or development as an apisiring psychologist and in such a way as to remain professional”.

To those who don’t know what I am referencing, see the essay topics below:

  • Please respond to both essay prompts below and upload to your online application. The word limit for both essays combined is 1,500 words. Please upload one document including both essay responses to your online application and number each essay response.
  • We do not require a personal statement.
Essay 1
Describe someone you know, other than a parent or guardian, about whom you have strong ambivalent or conflicting feelings. Describe the person in such a way that they “come alive” for the reader. How do you understand your reactions to this person? How might your personal history influence how you react?

Essay 2
What life experiences and personal motives have most influenced your decision to pursue graduate study in psychology?
*This question is about your personal motives and requires a degree of self-disclosure.
*Avoid writing about the wish to help others or about how you want to contribute to society.
*There is no need to list your credentials or professional experience (this is already on your CV/resume which will be read).


Not sure where you would stand in an applicant pool of 400+ with around 60+ admissions. I did notice something surprising on the site “TheGradCafe.com” “Results” page— if you search this PsyD program, one person reported some good stats (had presentations, involvement with research, good GpA, sounded well qualified even for PhD), and they reported being rejected from U of Denver’s PsyD which I found surprising. Perhaps it had to do with the interview process? I have heard that during the interviews they try to see if you would be a good fit with the cohort.

Look into the interest rates on that 200k for University of Denver. Let’s say your interest rate is 7%. That’s $14,000 per year JUST on interest. So you can plan on paying over $1,000 per month for interest alone. Loan Debt grows exponentially which is why it’s so hard to get rid of. If you’re good at Excel, make a spreadsheet to calculate how long it would realistically take to pay off 200k and you’d be surprised. I was considering Denver University’s PsyD too but when I started thinking seriously about the costs associated I really second-guessed the idea.
 
Last edited:
Than you for your reply! I haven't looked into the costs at that level of detail, but I absolutely will. I just don't know what kind of chances I have with less expensive programs, because most PsyD progams seem to get dumped on a lot on this website. Denver is one of the only ones that seems respected, but $60k per year in tuition is ridiculously expensive. I honestly just don't think I have a chance at any funded program (PsyD or PhD).
I would like to work in an acute inpatient setting, but forensic psych is also one of my interests. Being a therapist is my top choice, I'm not looking into social work or nursing.
Your last comment got me to look into counseling programs, and it seems that they're not very different from clinical ones. I will absolutely have to look more into those. At this point though, I'm just trying to figure out if the doctorate is even worth it, or if I should get a Master's now and then reconsider the doctorate afterward.

I think you are a great candidate for a Masters degree. Find one that’s just 1 year. Try to get straight A’s (it would be almost pointless to get a Masters [strictly in terms of the applications- bc obviously outside of applications, more education has benefits] unless you are doing so to raise your overall GPA). Be careful with planning financially— do the Masters only if you vow to not entertain ideas of continuing on afterward to do an unfunded doctoral program. Because a Masters can range from 8k-50k even for 1 year depending on where you’re going. So if you do the Masters, try and make that the last educational debt you’re going to accrue. You could treat it like one final investment to get you into a funded doctoral program. Therefore saving $$ in the long run.
If you want to work with inpatients, see if any Comprehensive Psychiatric Emergency Care Programs (CPEP) have volunteer programs. It’s a great way to get hands-on clinical experience. Generally most big hospitals will have at least 1 Psychiatric ER. If the hospital also has a volunteer program, call and ask them if they have volunteers service any Psyche inpatient wings of the hospital. But if you want funded programs, you can probs forget about the clinical experience and go with the strictly research experience route. Labs that do research on Schizophrenia and Schizoaffective disorder might be a good target population if you want to combine research experience with a population that has a higher propensity to be in and out of inpatient units regularly.

Hypothetical Situation if you were to get an MA: While you’re doing your Masters (if you do a Masters), see if you can design a research study by submitting a protocol to your MA school’s IRB board (you would probably have to do so with supervision from a professor)— but it’s not that hard to design a very simple low risk study. It can be something as simple as doing a survey around campus. Usually a Masters will haveyou write a thesis or equivalent anyway, so you could even use the data from this study for that. Try and design a simple low risk exempt research study (google IRB approval if this makes no sense to you) and utilize your time as a student there to get in on that IRB. Basically:
-You need IRB approval to do any type of measurement on humans that you intend to present or publish
-Colleges typically have their own IRB that students can present protocols to, and get IRB approval (but in most cases a faculty member has to sign off on it)
-One you’re not In school anymore, usually your only other option would be pursuing a commercial IRB. They cost $$.

So hypothetically here’s what you could do. Let’s say you’re at a Masters and you’ve got a simple study in mind that you’d like to conduct. Approach a professor at the MA and say “hey I’m interested in designing this low risk study (maybe a survey study)”— and ask them if they’ll sign off on it so you can get student IRB approval. Then you can run the study, collect the data, and prove or disprove your hypothesis. This would have several benefits for you: 1.) you demonstrate the ability to design a study, test a hypothesis, etc. 2.) You will have primary data which you can use for analysis which is great 3.) you can use this data to submit to a conference for a poster presentation or publication......

If you got straight A’s in a Masters and did something above and beyond in terms of showing the initiative to get deeply involved with research, then you may find yourself a top candidate for getting into a FUNDED PhD program.
 
Last edited:
Have you run the financials? Assuming you're able to graduate Denver with 4 years of on-campus instruction, you're looking at a minimum of $250,000 in student loans (compounding to ~$370,000 in 20 years given current interest rates). The median psychologist salary is ~$75,000, which will be closer to $50,000 net after federal and state income taxes. On a 20-year repayment plan, that's ~$1500 a month in loan payments while you take home ~$4000, which would likely put you behind the management team at your local Target.


I don't have direct knowledge about U of Denver or PsyD admissions preferences but generally speaking research experience > clinical experience because students without adequate research training are much more likely to not be able to graduate (e.g., completing their dissertation) and everybody will be getting at least 5 years of graduate clinical training. Plus the only clinical experiences applicants can get are ones that require a GED (psych tech, residence life, peer counseling, crisis line volunteer, etc) so volunteer experiences are usually used to help us to demonstrate our interest in this field. But it's certainly not the only way to do that.

What type of research did you do? Unless you're deadset on being admitted to a PsyD program next fall, you could spend 1-2 years getting additional research experience that include opportunities to publish (look for paid RA gigs) and potentially become competitive for funded PhD programs. Some loans still may be needed to cover living expenses but you'd start your career in a much better spot financially while potentially receiving better training.
Hi! First, thank you for this reply. It's very much appreciated. I'm doing research on a measure that my mentor is trying to establish for clinical psychologists to use on their patients. I'm also working on a few other projects with people in my lab, including assisting on a paper that may be published in a journal soon. I'm also working on doing a few presentations for the measure I mentioned previously.
 
To get into a funded PsyD (which are usually the research-oriented PsyD’s) you would need some solid research experience. To get into an unfunded PsyD, more practice oriented, usually they want clinical experience yeah. Denver University (University of Denver)’s PsyD program is one of the more expensive programs as previous posters have said.

But for the sake of answering your question, “How hard is it to get in to Denver’s PsyD?”..............‘The Insiders Guide to Graduate Programs in Clinical & Counseling Psychology’ (Sayette & Norcross, Eds., 2020) has stats in the back of their book about most programs—- which reports DU’s PsyD, the # for applied vs. Admitted (in 2017): 482 applied, 68 admission offers, 37 incoming. Full tuition waiver went to 10% of students, 24% of students got assistantships/fellowships. 100% APA internship match rate.

Be careful with Denver University PsyD’s Statement of Purpose topic. Yes they ask for a rather personal snapshot into your mind and explicitly state that your answer will require a degree of self disclosure. But that doesn’t mean it’s a green light to get totally unprofessional with it. Self-disclose wisely: do so only in the context of relating any points or observations you make directly back to how this is relevant to your interest in psychology. Just try to remember this is a professional essay you are writing not a diary entry. DU PsyD’s essay prompt is not typical to doctoral programs but still, make sure to take that invitation to self-disclose with the caveat of “to the degree that it is relevant to your career or development as an apisiring psychologist and in such a way as to remain professional”.

To those who don’t know what I am referencing, see the essay topics below:

  • Please respond to both essay prompts below and upload to your online application. The word limit for both essays combined is 1,500 words. Please upload one document including both essay responses to your online application and number each essay response.
  • We do not require a personal statement.
Essay 1
Describe someone you know, other than a parent or guardian, about whom you have strong ambivalent or conflicting feelings. Describe the person in such a way that they “come alive” for the reader. How do you understand your reactions to this person? How might your personal history influence how you react?

Essay 2
What life experiences and personal motives have most influenced your decision to pursue graduate study in psychology?
*This question is about your personal motives and requires a degree of self-disclosure.
*Avoid writing about the wish to help others or about how you want to contribute to society.
*There is no need to list your credentials or professional experience (this is already on your CV/resume which will be read).


Not sure where you would stand in an applicant pool of 400+ with around 60+ admissions. I did notice something surprising on the site “TheGradCafe.com” “Results” page— if you search this PsyD program, one person reported some good stats (had presentations, involvement with research, good GpA, sounded well qualified even for PhD), and they reported being rejected from U of Denver’s PsyD which I found surprising. Perhaps it had to do with the interview process? I have heard that during the interviews they try to see if you would be a good fit with the cohort.

Look into the interest rates on that 200k for University of Denver. Let’s say your interest rate is 7%. That’s $14,000 per year JUST on interest. So you can plan on paying over $1,000 per month for interest alone. Loan Debt grows exponentially which is why it’s so hard to get rid of. If you’re good at Excel, make a spreadsheet to calculate how long it would realistically take to pay off 200k and you’d be surprised. I was considering Denver University’s PsyD too but when I started thinking seriously about the costs associated I really second-guessed the idea.
Thank you for this reply! It was very helpful.
 
I'm doing research on a measure that my mentor is trying to establish for clinical psychologists to use on their patients. I'm also working on a few other projects with people in my lab, including assisting on a paper that may be published in a journal soon. I'm also working on doing a few presentations for the measure I mentioned previously.
I think this is a solid start and can demonstrate your interest in both research and clinical work. Have you asked for advice from your mentor on what s/he thinks of your competitiveness for a funded program? Are they a PsyD or PhD in clinical or counseling psychology? Is your lab part of a funded doc program? If so, those grad students might be able to give you perspectives on how you might compare.

It's possible that in another year after graduation, some of these projects can turn into paper authorship or conference presentations and if you're still adding to your CV and clarifying what you want to research, you could potentially be a good fit for a funded program. Or if you decide ultimately to pursue U of Denver or another self-pay PsyD, you likely would be more competitive for that as well.
 
I think you are a great candidate for a Masters degree. Find one that’s just 1 year. Try to get straight A’s (it would be almost pointless to get a Masters [strictly in terms of the applications- bc obviously outside of applications, more education has benefits] unless you are doing so to raise your overall GPA). Be careful with planning financially— do the Masters only if you vow to not entertain ideas of continuing on afterward to do an unfunded doctoral program. Because a Masters can range from 8k-50k even for 1 year depending on where you’re going. So if you do the Masters, try and make that the last educational debt you’re going to accrue. You could treat it like one final investment to get you into a funded doctoral program. Therefore saving $$ in the long run.
If you want to work with inpatients, see if any Comprehensive Psychiatric Emergency Care Programs (CPEP) have volunteer programs. It’s a great way to get hands-on clinical experience. Generally most big hospitals will have at least 1 Psychiatric ER. If the hospital also has a volunteer program, call and ask them if they have volunteers service any Psyche inpatient wings of the hospital. But if you want funded programs, you can probs forget about the clinical experience and go with the strictly research experience route. Labs that do research on Schizophrenia and Schizoaffective disorder might be a good target population if you want to combine research experience with a population that has a higher propensity to be in and out of inpatient units regularly.

Hypothetical Situation if you were to get an MA: While you’re doing your Masters (if you do a Masters), see if you can design a research study by submitting a protocol to your MA school’s IRB board (you would probably have to do so with supervision from a professor)— but it’s not that hard to design a very simple low risk study. It can be something as simple as doing a survey around campus. Usually a Masters will haveyou write a thesis or equivalent anyway, so you could even use the data from this study for that. Try and design a simple low risk exempt research study (google IRB approval if this makes no sense to you) and utilize your time as a student there to get in on that IRB. Basically:
-You need IRB approval to do any type of measurement on humans that you intend to present or publish
-Colleges typically have their own IRB that students can present protocols to, and get IRB approval (but in most cases a faculty member has to sign off on it)
-One you’re not In school anymore, usually your only other option would be pursuing a commercial IRB. They cost $$.

So hypothetically here’s what you could do. Let’s say you’re at a Masters and you’ve got a simple study in mind that you’d like to conduct. Approach a professor at the MA and say “hey I’m interested in designing this low risk study (maybe a survey study)”— and ask them if they’ll sign off on it so you can get student IRB approval. Then you can run the study, collect the data, and prove or disprove your hypothesis. This would have several benefits for you: 1.) you demonstrate the ability to design a study, test a hypothesis, etc. 2.) You will have primary data which you can use for analysis which is great 3.) you can use this data to submit to a conference for a poster presentation or publication......

If you got straight A’s in a Masters and did something above and beyond in terms of showing the initiative to get deeply involved with research, then you may find yourself a top candidate for getting into a FUNDED PhD program.
Definitely a lot to consider. I do currently work in an inpatient setting and have for a few months (as a counselor at a couple psychiatric hospitals). I would prefer the straight-to-doctorate route, just in case I still couldn't get into a funded program. The programs I applied to last cycle were unfunded PsyDs, but when I asked how to be more competitive they recommended getting more clinical experience so that's what I focused on. I don't have extensive research experience yet, so I'm not really sure where to start with that. I'm absolutely more comfortable in the clinical setting than research, so I don't really know if grad programs would be okay with that. Even then, all of the programs I've liked so far have pretty brutal reputations on here so the whole process has become very confusing. The master's route is definitely another thing to think about, though. Thank you!
 
I'd strongly recommend that you do a clinical or combined clinical PhD. The job market is much better, especially given your interests.

Thank you for the reply. For some programs, such as Pittsburgh, they offer a Clinical program as well as their joint programs (e.g. Clinical-Developmental). Do you believe there is an advantage in doing a Clinical program rather than a combined Clinical, or vice versa? Would the job market be similar?
 
Thank you for the reply. For some programs, such as Pittsburgh, they offer a Clinical program as well as their joint programs (e.g. Clinical-Developmental). Do you believe there is an advantage in doing a Clinical program rather than a combined Clinical, or vice versa? Would the job market be similar?


Just make sure that any joint program is APA-accredited and leads to licensure. Otherwise, probably not much of a difference in most circumstances.
 
Hi everyone! Apologies for posting again, I just can't decide if I should retake the GRE (again) Verbal&Quant: 309 Verbal: 154 Quant: 155 Writing: 4.5
I'm applying to PhD programs and want to be a clinical neuropsychologist. I'm not the best GRE test taker (I've taken it before and got a 308), but should I try to take the exam once more before the application deadlines? I'm hard on myself as I'm sure we all are, but I don't want my low scores to be the thing that screens me out. Though most schools waived the GRE requirement this year, 2 schools that I really want to apply to still require it (strong mentor match, great neuropsych programs). What do you think? Thank you in advance for reading, your advice is always truly appreciated.

Here are my other stats if it's helpful:

Major: Biology and Psychology, 2018
GPA 3.8 / Psych major GPA: 3.95
Psi Chi (psych) and Sigma Xi (science and engineering)

Research:
- 1 publication (3rd author of 4)
- 1 manuscript in prep (4th of 5)
- 4 presentations (one national, one at the state level, two at my university)
- Research methods course (independent research project)
- Senior thesis (independent research project)
- Summer Undergraduate Research Fellowship in a lab for 10 weeks
- I've been in a lab at a Univeristy Hospital for 2.5 years as an RC managing 4 brain injury studies. I do informed consent, data collection, interviews, neuropsych assessments and data management for all of them
- Currently involved in three projects that will be papers eventually but not anytime before app deadlines.

Clinical:
- I interned at at a neuropsych private practice for one semester during undergrad administering and scoring neuropsych assessments for various clinical populations
- 1 year of shadowing a rehab psychologist at a rehab hospital
- 2 years of attending my boss's brain injury clinic, writing up the histories for him, taking observations and writing up the clinical reports

I don't know how much this matters, but in terms of teaching experience, I was a chem tutor and a mentor to freshman undergrads for one year too.

Thanks!
 
Top