This is great info. Yes I’m not quite sure how many people get in with previous neuro experience, but it seems as if it’s getting more and more competitive each year so I figured if I’m going up against someone else who has prior neuro experience, they would fill the slot. Thank you again!
Did you apply to this same list of schools during the last cycle? And did you end up getting that USA interview or any others?
USA is a pretty new program and Mobile, AL might turn off some applicants. I know multiple UNT grads who are competent professionals and from what I gather, the program is quite competitive and productive research wise.
Hi, and thanks for the prompt response. Appreciate it. To clear up, I’ve only ever applied one cycle. I was saying that I’m thinking of applying a second go around, but am wondering how much of a difference being published would be versus not in increasing my chances of acceptance.
Probably not a major difference maker as the modal applicant is assumed to be at this level.
It's always helpful to provide context but whether it makes a difference probably depends on how many applicants you're competing against. Let's say a PI has 10 potential applicants next cycle. Your GPA context will be measured against their GPA/context/academic potential.
This is likely going to be the biggest difference maker. In a standard scientist-practitioner model, grad students will be working with their PIs to publish in exchange for mentorship. Think from a PI's perspective - they are screening people for future potential and likely want to see a track record of contributing to productive projects (papers, posters, etc) since that suggests the candidate is more likely to have the skills/work ethic to continue being successful under their guidance.
Average is probably just fine. High is nice but likely won't be a difference maker. Low might raise some eyebrows, especially if the competition is much higher.
Having a focus is really important. I've had some incidental exposure to folks working in this field and some of them are research beasts. I think it's also a pretty tight knit field, as many subspecialties tend to be (e.g., PIs being very aware of other PIs and having strong opinions about other labs). YMMV but some labs in this subfield may be on the higher end of admission competitiveness.
I just looked at the CV of a grad school friend who secured a really good tenure track assistant prof gig following internship. They have 15 peer-reviewed pubs associated with their grad school lab, including things that they collaborated on after graduating and others in review/prep. Their PI is a known figure in that field (e.g., they've done NPR interviews when that topic came to the forefront) and quite ambitious. My friend and others in that lab worked waaaaaaaay harder than I did during grad school to attempt to set themselves up for these academic careers. In general, many very hard-working and smart grad students who excel in grad school will not achieve this goal due to supply/demand issues in higher ed/AMC jobs.
Well actually if you go off my school's NCAA football record it can be considered highly offensive but not for academics 😉.
I agree with @WisNeuro — you have strong qualifications! I might try to get a few conference presentations, just because they are expected, but publications, if accepted, will generally carry much more weight.
Agree with this as well—I think you’d be decently competitive this coming cycle.
Certainly enough to apply during the next cycle and I think you'd get interviews if you're applying to programs with good fit.
What are your career goals? If you intend to practice, I'd argue that PhD program orientation isn't all that important. It's more important to get the types of training experiences pre-internship (eg., easier to get neuro experience in a metro than a rural area).
You're competitive for counseling and clinical PhDs. Don't apply to any of the PsyDs (except for Rutgers and Baylor if you want). Apply for RA positions if you don't get in this cycle. Don't apply for master's programs as they won't be worth it in your case (you already have plenty of experience and good GPAs). Are you currently in a research job? I'm guessing your career goals are clinically focused rather than research. If that's the case, you should still add clinical psych phds to your list. Most people who graduate from those programs go on to clinical careers.
You're probably competitive for those programs but definitely apply to more than just that list. There are many more clinical programs that have faculty who align with your interests. You would also be competitive for counseling psychology programs as well but your research interests align much more with clinical psych faculty from what I can tell. Having a counseling masters is not a problem. You can make it clear in your personal statement that you are more research-oriented.
As a fellow liberal arts grad who created their own major, I loled at this lingo.
If this doesn't come through by the next application cycle, you'll likely face significantly more barriers of direct admission from undergrad and maybe need to take a gap research year.
Most PhD/PsyDs end up in bread and butter clinical roles (outpt therapy, specialty residential units/treatment centers, neuropsych/forensic evals, etc) - is that where you see yourself? Since this interest feels way more suited for the academic world, which doesn't seem like a good fit for you? And it could make you seem like a 'poor fit' for PhD programs that don't have faculty interested in this niche even if your CV/stats are very competitive.
For people applying directly out of undergrad, having posters and pubs I think is really important since you're likely competing against other students who may be enrolled in MS programs and have more opportunities to showcase the potential for being successful in a PhD program.
If you are allowed 3 LORs and 1 is already from a non-psychology discipline, this seems like a poor use of your final choice IMO. You need people to speak to your ability to be successful in an intensive psychology graduate program so people with that personal experience and experience working with you are usually best able to do so.
How did you choose these programs? Some on your list are extremely competitive AFAIK and others I didn't know had PhD programs.
You should apply to programs that are a good fit as the PhD degree and one's ability to practice with it will be exactly the same. But your learning experiences, interactions with faculty, training and research opps, and program culture will vary widely.
Thank you very much for your honest feedback!
Totally fine to narrow schools based on what's important for you but it might also decrease your chances of finding both mentorship fit as well as program fit.
Maybe one way to look at it is what's more important (if you could only choose one): having peers of similar background(s) or a program that is welcoming of difference?
Personally, I think it's more important to look at what types of clinical opportunities are available to students. A majority to the entirety of your clinical training will happen outside of the school (esp if there's no program-run training clinic). My program was rural-ish so it would have been impossible for me to get neuropsych training but I got plenty of hospital assessment experience as my integrated reports and assessment hours for internship applications were well above the mean.
If your career goal is academia, get as much mentoring now as you can on the realities of higher ed and future tenure track jobs. Read Inside HigherEd. Things are rough even for the best and brightest and I don't think anybody knows how things will change in the near future. And it's quite likely that you'll also be living somewhere that won't be anywhere near your ideal and making way less money than the average PhD level clinician.
Congrats! That's awesome!
Were all of these courses taken at community college? Admissions panel will care more about classes more central to grad success such as research methods and stats than your general core and plenty of people will do those at a CC before transferring to their 4-year.
Safest bet is to not disclose specifics about mental health to avoid over-disclosing, especially since having appropriate boundaries is an important part of one's future clinical work. But plenty of people talk about what helped them to gain more focus or direction and what they learned from that process, regardless of whether mental health or personal health was a contributing factor.
Have you fully considered the financial ramifications of a self-pay PsyD? This will impact every financial decision you make the rest of your life (house, kids, retirement). I had a VA colleague from a program on your list and they also had an active private practice outside their 40 hr/wk VA job and I imagine their debt played a large role in that. And as you already know, you've already done plenty of meaningful things in mental health without any licenses and the majority of active clinicians have a licensable MA/MS.
I have, and I would vastly prefer to get into a funded program. I'm just truly unsure of my competitiveness for funded Clinical, and even for Counseling programs. That being said, I'm determined to get a doctoral degree and I will go the PsyD route if I have to. I'm not willing to compromise with match rates or accreditation, but I can stomach the cost if I must (with some family help).
Hopefully it will be fine. You'll take those classes again your 1st or 2nd semester during any doctoral program but you never know what some people will be sticklers for and we as a field aren't exactly known for our lack of neuroticism lol.
Determination is fantastic. But assuming you were a traditional-aged college student without a spouse or kids, financial decisions and what you're willing to do as 22-25 yo is lightyears different than when you're further along in age and other people become your primary responsibility (assuming family is something you want).
If you have a hard cap on how much you can spend on application and transcript fees, that would be a simple answer. If not, it really depends on how much time you can devote to researching programs and completing SoPs and such. As a first-time applicant, I would apply as widely as possible to programs where I have a genuine rationale for wanting to attend (PI researches x and I did a poster on xy versus 'hey this school is by the beach') because any interview you secure is an opportunity to truly learn about what grad school will be like and compare it to your theoretical view of grad school being a great fit for your life.
Yes, I thought about that! Doing a Masters is certainly an option for me. I actually planned to research and apply to some Masters programs as backup options to boost my C.V. and give me some research experience.
Don't know a ton either. But one difference is that some are stand-alone programs while others may be run in conjunction with a PhD program so resources (like labs) are shared.
IMO, keep your job and apply to the programs you mentioned.
Can't say for every program but clinical experiences probably range from nearly irrelevant to possibly giving you the edge when compared to a similarly qualified applicant. And more relevant for counseling psych PhDs than clinical.
I don't see why you would need to do so unless it interferes with continuing to work on your pending projects or you find something better.
This can potentially be very helpful. I know multiple people who had mentorship lineage play a role since a PI is more likely to trust a colleague than a rec from a random PhD.
I don't know anything specific about these clinical programs but these are 4 of the most prominent research universities in this part of the US so you might have some really strong competition. Good luck as you build out your list and move forward!
What exactly do you mean by this? I don't quite understand. Are you saying I don't need to worry as much about it?
Do you think I should reach lower then? That is something I'm worried about. I'm planning on applying to other lower schools obviously but I also wanted to give those schools a shot too. Oh and thank you for the good luck wishes!!! 🙂
So you're saying I shouldn't worry about it? I was beginning to think I should try and get a part time job at a local counseling clinic or do volunteering.
Do you think I should reach lower then? That is something I'm worried about. I'm planning on applying to other lower schools obviously but I also wanted to give those schools a shot too. Oh and thank you for the good luck wishes!!! 🙂
Yup, plenty of people enter clinical programs with zero hands-on experience. And it seems like the more research oriented the program, the less weight clinical experiences hold. Volunteering seems more helpful for terminal MS programs.
Unless you have a cap on how much you can spend on app fees or time to put together applications, I'd apply wherever you think you'd be a good fit. IMO the admissions process is ridiculously subjective since so much depends on what each PI is looking for at that moment so you never know.
Thank you for posting this! I found it to be very interesting and useful.
CA requires a few really specific courses outside the normal APA curriculum so zero non-CA based programs will meet this requirement.
Thanks! I did realize that these courses can be taken after completing the doctoral program...(as they said- "during the application process") so that is a little comforting to know.
Hey! it's nice reading your information...I am also applying this cycle (to clinical science programs). I believe it could really be not worth re-taking the GREs....lots of programs have either removed them or made them optional. I made a spreadsheet with list of schools and noted which ones required GREs....basically non of the 12 on my list requires them. But some might argue that it can be a GPA puncher.
You’ve obviously worked really hard and stayed focus on your goals so congrats! You’re further along as an incoming junior than the majority who apply directly from undergrad and still have 2 more years to add to your CV (and hopefully a peer reviewed article).
Thank you so much for the reply. I will continue the networking bit but more importantly I will keep pursuing fun activities that I didn't include the post and I'm definitely not opposed to the idea of taking the gap years as a way to take that breather and help prevent burnout. This is really helpful and I'll definitely keep thinking and reflecting on these things.
Thank you for that insight. I am really torn about retaking it honestly. Studying for it and retaking it is a decent amount of $$$ that I would like to have for the application cycle. However, do you think that my GPA puts me in enough of a competitive position for me to not require a solid GRE?
Since time is always a limiting factor, I would focus on your manuscript. If it's submitted for review by application cycle and you also have a rec from the lab lead who helped guide that project, would likely be the 2nd author, and can speak to your initiative, focus, academic aptitude, etc, IMO that would outweigh whatever possible bump on your GREs. I also think that would be a bigger differentiator when it comes to who you're competing against since you've had some success with PsyD applications and boosting your CV is the path towards a funded PhD.
I think most applicants naturally over-value their LORs. Unless somebody else is aware of the work that the prestigious or well-respected psychologists have done in the field, they are just another faceless professional. And unless each letter is also speaking specifically to your qualities in a non-generic way, these letters might hold less weight than you imagine. I would also definitely ask your assessment supervisor for a letter since they should be able speak to your professionalism, competence, aptitude for learning, ability to be supervised, etc.
If I am being completely honest, I do not particularly have any preference of where I attend. I am not interested in doing research at or pursuing a position at any r1 universities. I would mainly like to focus my professional goals around clinical work, therapy, assessment and hopefully prescription rights for the clients that I see. I am fortunate enough to have a family that all does therapy and other mental health services, and so I have a secured job position that should pay well.
You’re describing where the vast majority of applicants fall and where probably 90%+ eventually end up career-wise even if they had interest in research so a key for funded PhD programs will be to stand out and differentiate yourself from the competition and at least for PhDs, that differentiator is often research since GPAs, GREs, previous coursework, etc fall within a more narrow range.
Makes sense and I would also draw distinctions between what you’re interested in, what you identify as a focus in statements of purpose, what you focus on during grad school, and what you do career wise. For example, what I researched in grad school is practically in a different field than what I do clinically today.
My only experience is being a PhD student but I see funded programs as more fluid. Yes, there are top programs with well-known leaders in the field and R1 resources but beyond that, the biggest distinction might be the availability of funding and less so any USNews-style ranking of undergrad, law, and MBAs. There are countless people who might be the top choice for their program but couldn't sniff an interview at other similar programs, which IMO speaks to fit.
If you go that route, make sure to crunch the numbers again, even if you have family connections. Debt and interest on your principle is no joke, especially $200,000+ worth of it. Self-pays continue to get more expensive but I don’t really see the field matching pace (I work for the VA so my pay is locked in).
Wow! You are way more competitive than I was as a junior in college, and even when I applied to programs last year (I am currently in my first year at a clinical psych phd program with a neuropsych focus). You are in great shape to apply, seriously.